Thai Kastane

[ariel]

Also from my recent visit to the Leeds Royal Armoury.
Yet another example of cross-fertilization of different cultures

[derek]

Hi Ariel,

Interesting sword! Definite similarities, but distinct from any kastane I've seen. In fact, I've seen a few daggers for sale recently that looked an aweful lot like this sword. A few kastanes below for comparison.

[Andrew]

Interesting. If the museum is correct (not something I'm usually confident of--your pardon, Wolviex ), it might explain the painting we discussed on this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001809.html

Unfortunately, that painting has been reduced to the ubiquitous red x.


Ruel, if you're out there, any chance you could re-post that photo for discussion?

[Rick]

I'm also wondering if the blade is of Thai manufacture ; it looks like Indian work to me , or possibly Persian .
Possibly the only thing Thai about it may be the hilt .

[Justin]

I agree with Rick,the blade looks very 'tulwar-ish' to me I wonder if this was made in India somewhere not to far from Sri Lanka.I do also have to admit though that the hilt looks a lot like the 'Vietnamese sabers' that have popped up here and there.

[Conogre]

I would have to agree that the blade does look as if it may have come from India, while the hilt itself is truly oriental in appearance, as are some from SE Asia, including Thailand, but the whole feel is just wrong for the latter, somehow.
I wish I could give a better argument than just a hunch, but for now, that will have to suffice.
Mike

[tom hyle]

Does the blade not also resemble the type of parang nabur that has a yelman? The hilt has at least 3 characteristics that are very different from any other kastane shown: the knuclebow seems to connect at the pommel; the knuckle bow is more gradually curved, less angled (and closer to the blade/handle) where it angles up; the handle has a curvature in the part that is meant to be inside the hand, rather than being essentially straight with a hooked pommel, which is a significant handling difference. Also, the metal-covered(?) handle seems unusual (?) but seems to be occasionally seen in all times and places......Can't see the face too well, but it does not look like the usual face.

[Rick]

I'm kind of suspicious of this sword .
It could all be S.Indian after seeing some of the motifs in Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual i.e. pg. 99 fig. 8.64 or pg. 100 fig. 8.67 or pg. 175 fig. 16.26 .

If the hilt had a polish it might appear quite differently .
The fullering , and the blade itself is quite different than most parang nabur .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=parang+nabur

[Mark]

As far as the detail of the decoration, I do not recognize any Thai motifs, which tend to be a little more "flamey" or spikey. Nor have I read or see a kastane provinenced from Thailand. There were certainly contacts with Sri Lanka, perhaps more with Burma than Thailand. One other point to ponder is a royal edict issued in Siam at a time when Japanese blades were becoming common and popular, requiring that the use of such blades would be acceptable only so long as the fittings were Thai. So you see a fair number of katana blades fitted with handles having a round cross-section and a pommel. Based on that I would have expected a more Thai-styled handle on the blade, though in more recent times the knuckle-bow saber handle is common.

Coincedentally, here is a sword which was recently sold by Hermann-Historica, attributed to "Borneo/Brunei," but the handle of which to me strongly resembles that of a Burmese dha. Note the blade ...

[CharlesS]

I agree with Mark completely. I see nothing in this sword that says "Thai".

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Rick

The fullering , and the blade itself is quite different than most parang nabur .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=parang+nabur

I agree it is different than most parang nabur. I think of the bathead sword as perhaps a more "native"/archetypical form of parang nabur than those in the thread you linked, but it is the type in that thread to which I was referring as similar to this sword. I still think so; two grooves along the spine (yes, these ones are wider); similar length and curvature; trailing tip with yelman (I'm not sure a parang nabur really is a parang nabur when it has a clipped/truncatd tip, BTW; it's certainly significantly different than the machete like trailing tips; whether this is reflected with a different native name I don't know.); what's so different? All I see is this blade seems narrower, and that this narrowness occurs more at the tip; this blade seems to get a bit narrower as it goes away from the hilt, the parang nabur wider.

[Gavin Nugent]

Whilst reading through some old posts I came to this and it seemed to stop unsolved within these pages many years ago.

To throw my hat in the ring, it appears to be of Sumatran Peudeung form. The hilt to me says Vietnamese made in Peudeung form.
The Islamic blade/blade stlye is not unheard of within Sumatran weapons so perhaps the sword in full or hilt alone was gifted or bought from a Vietnamese person/workshop to or by a Sumatran??

My 2 cents

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

To throw my hat in the ring, it appears to be of Sumatran Peudeung form. The hilt to me says Vietnamese made in Peudeung form.
The Islamic blade/blade stlye is not unheard of within Sumatran weapons so perhaps the sword in full or hilt alone was gifted or bought from a Vietnamese person/workshop to or by a Sumatran??

Can we use the term "peudeueng form" with any real meaning since the word literally just means "sword" and can be used to describe a variety of Sumatran swords. Perhaps "peudeueng peusangan" might be more accurate as it seems to describe the curved variety.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Can we use the term "peudeueng form" with any real meaning since the word literally just means "sword" and can be used to describe a variety of Sumatran swords. Perhaps "peudeueng peusangan" might be more accurate as it seems to describe the curved variety.

To be clearer, and following Zonneveld, Peudeueng would be correct and when referring to his notation of refer to Pedang, Pedang type 1 with the basket type guard is my thoughts as it shares the same form, langet and lugs at the base of the blade, along with the same profile, all that lacks is the spike in leu of the carved head pommel.

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

To be clearer, and following Zonneveld, Peudeueng would be correct and when referring to his notation of refer to Pedang, Pedang type 1 with the basket type guard is my thoughts as it shares the same form, langet and lugs at the base of the blade, along with the same profile, all that lacks is the spike in leu of the carved head pommel.

Gav

Well, i don't quite see exactly where Zonneveld states "Peudeueng" as "correct". He simply states that it is another word for pedang, of which there are numerous varieties. I think you are probably right that this sword blade comes very close to Zonnefeld's classification of a "Pedang type 1", but this is a purely Western classification. It is quite possible, of course, that the Sumatran did/does not distinguish name wise between Pedang I, II, and III, but Zonnefeld then goes on to give a long list of "pedang this" and "pedang thats" which seem to imply that very specific names exist for all these very different forms of swords do exist.
I don't know that the name i suggested above is correct either, but tagging on "peusangan" or "pasangan" i believe at least describes it as a curved sword blade.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i don't quite see exactly where Zonneveld states "Peudeueng" as "correct". He simply states that it is another word for pedang, of which there are numerous varieties. I think you are probably right that this sword blade comes very close to Zonnefeld's classification of a "Pedang type 1", but this is a purely Western classification. It is quite possible, of course, that the Sumatran did/does not distinguish name wise between Pedang I, II, and III, but Zonnefeld then goes on to give a long list of "pedang this" and "pedang thats" which seem to imply that very specific names exist for all these very different forms of swords do exist.
I don't know that the name i suggested above is correct either, but tagging on "peusangan" or "pasangan" i believe at least describes it as a curved sword blade.

Purely as a point of reference;

Peudeueng was in the first instance correct as a type/category of this sabre in my opinion.
It offers in my opinion a Sumatran regional base for what I felt was overlooked in the first instance many years ago.

From your elaborating Sumatran sabre type, Peudeueng Peusangan is a different type (blade and hilt when compared to the subject matter in question), hence my use of the word Peudeueng as being 'correct' in my context not Zonneveld's context as you have noted, nothing more.

Zonneveld was only referenced to elaborate that Peudeueng is of this type in question.

Refer Zonneveld as the easist point of reference that has at least classifications to elaborate my initial naming and presto Peusangan leads to Pedang type 1 is of this form as you can see.

You are correct that this is westernised and that native Sumatrans now or of the day would not choose between Pedang type 1,2 or 3 and rather would have used most likely just the word Peudeueng to cover all 'types'....hence my initial naming.

Native or westernised aside, isn't it nice to able to clasify a sword type in context with the hilt which is is a major point of intrigue within the post....

The simplicity of the term Peudeueng stands in my opinion and that the sword in question is Sumatran, Zonneveld reference only used to help answer your reply and to help others identify with the complete shape of the sabre in question from tip to tip in context.

[Nathaniel]

Ariel,

Thanks for sharing this interesting piece. Curious labeling. I agree with the Dha-Fathers, Nothing Thai in decoration or style. I agree with Rick, that the handle reminds me of Southern India work. Can't really comment otherwise, but enjoying the discussion

[David]

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

A well written and honest approach with references well noted that he has drawn from. I know and respect Dominique's on going work too. Well noted in the opening passage is that these weapons and the Chinese reference opens plausability to the hilt in the image Ariel posted could be from Vietnam as it was country under Chinese influence and rule.

Since this study was made available on the net quite some time back, I have not seen it ammended in any way as was expressed.
Is Mr Crosby available to delve further? I know I have some further questions since obtaining and dispersing the Kelling Hall collection, one unfortunately Mr Zonneveld was unable to help with further direction thanks to communications via Mr Rogers.

As Mr Crosby notes in many places within the text, 'Peudeueng' is the term for all swords from the region curved or straight. Further reference with regards to hilt type along with curved or straight blade and the many regional locations is noted and to complete is a monumnental work.
Within the text provided in the link and without further clear definition the Pasangan or other names is only noted as I quote 'A review of the literature seems to divide', obviously at the time of writing, not definative.

Of interest to me is the blade profile of these weapons, in particular the tips and fuller construction and where the basket hilt varients so far to my eyes have a sabre type hatchet tip. It was nice to see it touched on in these work too.

[David]

I know that Mr. Crosby used to post regularly on SFI, but i haven't noticed any posts by him recently over there.

[kai]

Well, John is a forum member here as well. Hope he'll chime in when online again.

However, I don't see any hint which would help to place this sword anywhere throughout the SEA archipelago: IMHO the workmanship doesn't look like Aceh/Sumatra nor Negara at all; also the blade would need to be an imported example (so no help in placing it).

I'm not positive but I also don't see a good match with Viet fittings. Any pics, Gav? The Thai crowd seems also confident that this is not from their area. Not any votes for Khmer/Lao/Burmese, too?

At the moment, I'm with Rick that S India warrants some more research. Any input from those well-versed in that area?

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

Well, John is a forum member here as well. Hope he'll chime in when online again.

However, I don't see any hint which would help to place this sword anywhere throughout the SEA archipelago: IMHO the workmanship doesn't look like Aceh/Sumatra nor Negara at all; also the blade would need to be an imported example (so no help in placing it).

I'm not positive but I also don't see a good match with Viet fittings. Any pics, Gav? The Thai crowd seems also confident that this is not from their area. Not any votes for Khmer/Lao/Burmese, too?

At the moment, I'm with Rick that S India warrants some more research. Any input from those well-versed in that area?

Regards,
Kai

Kai,

I am glad you came by.

As you are well aware, Islamic blades are found throughout Sumatra and many other SEA countries, the blade appears to be of Islamic form/style.

The hilt appears to me to be a blend of Vietnamese grip and pommel and the guard design of the Hulu meu apet. Attached is a hilt image of my Guom, note the similarities in styles. Add a Hulu meu apet guard to this grip, consider different materials used, add some stones to the mane and flowing mane along the spine of the grip and there are many more similarities than any other regional influences to my eye. Don't stop searching the southern Indian regions though ;-)

[kai]

As you are well aware, Islamic blades are found throughout Sumatra and many other SEA countries, the blade appears to be of Islamic form/style.

Yes, but we can't use the likely Ottoman/Arab/Persian/Afghan/Mughal origin of this blade to argue it's origin from SEA, can we? Moreover, imported blades in Viet dressing seem to be Chinese or Thai/Lao/Khmer while blades imported from the western Islamic sphere seem to be rare as hen's teeth. (I can't recall any...)

The hilt appears to me to be a blend of Vietnamese grip and pommel and the guard design of the Hulu meu apet. Attached is a hilt image of my Guom, note the similarities in styles.

I see your point; however, IMHO the similarities are not close enough to support the notion of Viet craftmanship/style: the construction is very different as are the details of decoration. (Guards on Viet swords seem to be either of European or Japanese influence.)

I'd also stipulate that there is not enough similarity to link this guard construction with the very conservative Aceh style. I guess that this hilt variant is more likely a direct descendant of Indian/Afghan/Persian/Arab/Ottoman hilts.

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, but we can't use the likely Ottoman/Arab/Persian/Afghan/Mughal origin of this blade to argue it's origin from SEA, can we? Moreover, imported blades in Viet dressing seem to be Chinese or Thai/Lao/Khmer while blades imported from the western Islamic sphere seem to be rare as hen's teeth. (I can't recall any...)


I see your point; however, IMHO the similarities are not close enough to support the notion of Viet craftmanship/style: the construction is very different as are the details of decoration. (Guards on Viet swords seem to be either of European or Japanese influence.)

I'd also stipulate that there is not enough similarity to link this guard construction with the very conservative Aceh style. I guess that this hilt variant is more likely a direct descendant of Indian/Afghan/Persian/Arab/Ottoman hilts.

Regards,
Kai

I see it more wholely Kastane in essence than a fanciful hybrid...although..part of me still considers the above offerings as feasible under the facts known about SEA swords types, trading and cultural interfacing.
The mask, mane and size of the hilt do say Sri Lanka, the blade, well there aren't many places Islamic type blades aren't seen...

[kai]

Hello Gav,

I see it more wholely Kastane in essence than a fanciful hybrid...

The mask, mane and size of the hilt do say Sri Lanka

Yes, I'd also love to get more input why the people at Leeds believe the hilt to not originate from SL. It's certainly not a typical kastane hilt but the long Singhalese-European interaction may account for some local variety...

Regards,
Kai