The visible part of gonjo when Keris sheathed

[Gustav]

Dear All,

I have a couple of questions regarding the visible part of gonjo, "looking" out of the sheath (at Keris Bugis).

May I ask for some criteria (how much is allowed to be visible, how differs (if at all) this in different regions)?

I have two examples, for whom I am unsure: both fit not bad, but is the visible part not to big? Is the bottom-line of gonjo and the bottom line of sampir still with in the boundaries?

And now to something completely different

There is this old Photo of a Balinese. The Gonjo is "looking" out of the sheath. Do you have seen something similar on some of your balinese kerisses? (Of course there is the question if the sheath is original.)

Regards

[BluErf]

Hi,

In general, kerises, esp Malay kerises from the Peninsula, have more of the ganja sticking out. But in general, the line joining the ganja and the blade should not rise above the sheath. On the Sumatra side, there are also Malay kerises showing the ganja, but not as much.

For Bugis kerises, they tend to be flush, or rise a bit above the sheath. Your Sulawesi example (1st one) showing slightly more ganja than we usually see for a Sulawesi Bugis keris (I have a Buton keris, Buton is a small island South of main Sulawesi island, which has a ganja that sticks out even more than yours). However, from what I see, this keris is well-fitted to the sheath, and looks quite nice actually. I would not recommend refitting the keris. For the Sumatran example, I think it is well acceptable too.

Another factor to consider is also the age of the sheath. With repeated drawing and sheathing, the mouth of the sheath wears down, and the blade would gradually sit lower and lower into the sheath.

[BluErf]

Malay Peninsula e.g.

[BluErf]

Sumatran e.g.

[BluErf]

Sulawesi e.g.

Unusual Buton e.g. is at the bottom.

[David]

I could be wrong, bit AFAIK Gustav, the Bali keris you show an example of would be considered a bad fit. I believe that the Balinese tradition should have the gonjo flush to the top of the sheath.

[Naga Sasra]

I would certainly agree with David, the Bali keris shown as an example is indeed a bad fit.
The norm for Bali/Lombok is for the ganja to be flush to the top of the sheath.

[Gustav]

Blu Erf, thank you very much for your explanation and beautiful examples.

[Sajen]

Hello Kai Wee,

very nice keris you have shown there for explanation. But isn't the first keris you declare as Sumatran not with a Peninsula handle?

Detlef

[BluErf]

Hi Detlef,

That probably is a Riau jawa demam (I got it on a Riau Bugis blade). The S. Peninsula and Riau forms are very similar as the area was effectively under the Johore-Riau Sultanate for a period.

[BluErf]

I have a Lombok keris pedang with a ganja that sticks just a little bit above the sheath. Looking at the sheath, I thought it was the original sheath.

The black and white photo here shows the ganja parallel with the top of the wrangka. Perhaps it was intentional? Perhaps some fellow collectors from Bali/Lombok can help clarify?

[Gustav]

Yes, I also have a keris from Lombok, with an older carefully made sarung of not bad quality, which also sticks a little bit (like on the picture) out of the sheath.

I also hope, somebody can clarify this.

[Naga Sasra]

Although I am not from Bali/Lombok I checked Djelenga's book for this issue, by far the large majority of the pieces are flush with the top of the sheath.

Also of the 29 pieces from Bali/Lombok in my own collection currently, all but two are flush with the top of the sheath.

Wood shrinkage over time and or poor fitting of the blade into the sheath, this is most likely the cause of the blades gonjo sticking a little bit above the sheath.

As for the Black and White photo, this photo was staged so who knows what the intention were.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Detlef,

That probably is a Riau jawa demam (I got it on a Riau Bugis blade). The S. Peninsula and Riau forms are very similar as the area was effectively under the Johore-Riau Sultanate for a period.

Thank you for clarification!

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Until March of 2009 I had been of the opinion that Balinese blades were always fitted so that the top of the gonjo was dead level with the top of the wrongko.

In March I was told by a tukang wrongko in Bali, a man of very advanced years, that many of the old wrongkos were made so that the ganja did not completely enter. He had several examples of older keris that bore out what he had told me.

Back in the 1960's I bought a lot of Bali and Lombok keris from an antique dealer in Sydney, whose son was living in Bali running sailing tours around the islands. This son was sending antiques including keris back to his father. I bought most of the keris that he sent back to his father. These keris were in disgusting condition and required complete restoration. I recall that many of them had blades that sat proud of the top of the wrongko. I assumed that these blades were non-original to the wrongkos and in restoration I fitted them neatly to the wrongko.

In retrospect I believe that I erred in doing this and that those blades were fitted in the old fashion, with the ganja sitting proud of the wrongko.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Until March of 2009 I had been of the opinion that Balinese blades were always fitted so that the top of the gonjo was dead level with the top of the wrongko.

In March I was told by a tukang wrongko in Bali, a man of very advanced years, that many of the old wrongkos were made so that the ganja did not completely enter. He had several examples of older keris that bore out what he had told me.

Back in the 1960's I bought a lot of Bali and Lombok keris from an antique dealer in Sydney, whose son was living in Bali running sailing tours around the islands. This son was sending antiques including keris back to his father. I bought most of the keris that he sent back to his father. These keris were in disgusting condition and required complete restoration. I recall that many of them had blades that sat proud of the top of the wrongko. I assumed that these blades were non-original to the wrongkos and in restoration I fitted them neatly to the wrongko.

In retrospect I believe that I erred in doing this and that those blades were fitted in the old fashion, with the ganja sitting proud of the wrongko.

Thanks Alan, interesting information...

[sipakatuo]

Dear Gustav

This is my opnion and to the extend of my limited knowledge.
Speaking about setting of Ganja (Kancing in Bugis term) I saw many style of them in my home town Sulawesi. So it is difficult to say which one is the right setting. Plenty of them just flat, when I say flat means a level with the mouth of warangka, some even slightly sank into the warangka, few shown the upper level or buntut cicak. Through my research in Sulawesi I found no philosophy, reference, or whatsoever about this issue or the knowledge about it has been buried. So I believe it is just a matter of our own preference. The high setting of buntut cicak could be just to make it attractive.

However, I know that in Malaysia dan Singapore they have other opinion about this issue.

Speaking about the setting of gonjo, here I want to share my family's heirlooms and they are as originals as you can see.

Btw, I am just a collector not a dealer or runner. I am here to exchange opinion with you and the rest of members. No point of getting famous or to be acknowledge by everyone. I believe if you have brain and want to be someone then you need to make a book and let other people judge you, by then you can measure your knowledge!. Just read previous threads about the need to claim own identity. My full name is quite long so just call me Andi or Irvan and I live in Jakarta. Thanks and have a nice weekend to everyone.

[Gustav]

Alan, Andi, Blu Erf, I am obliged to many thanks for the very interesting information and beautiful pictures.

Dear Andi, I agree completely with you. If a person has gained some remarkable level of knowledge and understanding in an area, it is almost a duty to write a work or to have pupils.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sipakatuo and Gustav, you have both expressed the opinion that a person who has knowledge should publish that knowledge.

If I were to accept your opinions as valid, I could consider that I am in a position where I do have a level of knowledge that could justify the publication of a book. However, I disagree completely this opinion.

I can mount a number of arguments against this opinion, but I'm not going to hijack this thread by running in a completely different direction, so I will limit my comments.

Firstly, there is the economic argument:-

producing a book, or any kind of writing is work, uses time; if we put time into writing, it must come from somewhere else, and if we need to use time to produce income, the time spent on writing reduces income; once the book has been written, it then needs to be published, and finding a publisher for anything other than a book that will return a profit on sales is a futile search.

In purely economic terms, the production of a book dealing with anything other than the most popularist aspects of the keris is a losing proposition.

It may be possible to defend the production of a book on the keris if that book deals with aspects of the keris that will attract a broad and not necessarily specialist readership, however, books of this nature have been done to the point of being overdone. They may return a dollar profit, but they do not return much profit in the form of knowledge.

Secondly there is the philosophical question of the morality of providing open access to all information in respect of the keris to anybody who can open a book.

I am of the opinion that all knowledge is not public property, and too much knowledge can in some instances be damaging to all concerned.

The level of knowledge to which one is entitled can be gauged by the questioning of the seeker after knowledge:- when the correct questions are asked, the correct knowledge will flow.

If this knowledge were to be given before the question were to be asked, the giving of the knowledge would be tantamount to the sowing of seeds in a barren field.

Thirdly, there is the motivation in production of a book.

I know of cases where a book has been produced for no other reason than to promote sales for the writer, and in the case of one very well known writer, deliberately incorrect, or inadequate information was provided in that book, in order to protect his own livilihood. When I pointed this out to the writer, his reply was:- "you don't need to tell the whole world everything; show them the door, but don't give them the key, they'll find the key themselves if they deserve to".

I know of other cases where a book has been written, sometimes with the backing of a wealthy benefactor, and for declared altruistic reasons, for the sole purpose of marketing a collection that was subsequently sold.

Then there are the cases, more than a few when we consider the keris, where a book, or books have been produced and privately published simply to feed the ego of the writer and to raise that writer's percieved level of expertise in the eyes of those who do not yet understand sufficient to differentiate between true knowledge and the appearance of knowledge.

If we desire knowledge, we should be prepared to seek that knowledge, not hope that it will be dropped into our laps when we open a book.

[sipakatuo]

Dear Alan

Thanks for expressing your opinion or I suppose your argument.
Different person has different opinion/argument and we need to respect it.
Don't always think negative to anybody because there are some people who are genuine in doing things. If we always think negative we are not getting anywhere my friend.

I personaly believe if you have a strong will, genuine passion, motivation, you can achieve anything you want. The same with writing a book about keris or anything. As I have said previously, let other people judge and that is a challange for the writer to overcome. At least you have tried to contribute something.

Enough saying, but I do respect your argument.

[guwaya]

[/QUOTE]

A nice faith but unfortunately the reality is teaching something different, and I speak from my own experience. To make it short in this thread - just take the commercial factor. As already said, writing a serious book needs time - more time than an daily 8 hours job at an office. So you need money.

If you then want to publish the book - you need money again. If somebody is willing to publish your book, you have to pay first or to buy a lot of your own books - the publisher is always on the save side.

So I don't see any negative thinking in Alan Maisey's statement - I just see facts and personal experience. Made these once, it can fetch you down very quickly from the dreaming stage back to reality.

"Write a book" - easy to say, but a difference do do! And not everybody was born with a golden spoon in his mouth.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Sipakatuo, opinions can vary from person to person, and each is entitled to his or her own opinion.

But all opinions are not equal.

The opinion of the person with knowledge in a particular field must inevitably carry more weight than the opinion of the person with limited, or no knowledge in that field, and the opinion of the giver of a gift is very likely to vary from the opinion of the receiver of a gift.

Thus, the right to hold, or even to express an opinion must be equally respected, but the opinion itself should be valued in accordance with the weight of knowledge that has helped form that opinion.

It is the right to an opinion that is respected, not necessarily the opinion itself.

Similarly with the concept of negativity.

That which may appear to be negative from one person's perspective may be valued as distinctly positive from the perspective of another.

Thus some of us may regard data obtained without effort to be of somewhat less value, than data gained through one's own efforts:- this point of view, will not be shared by all, as it could be argued that the freely obtained data has given the seeker after knowledge more time and perhaps a springboard to extend his personal search for knowledge.

The idea that all can be achieved through indomitable will and ceasless striving, I personally regard as somewhat of a motherhood idea:- a worthy idea that few people will disagree with but one that can be easily shown to be fallacious. Each of us can only achieve our potential by a combination of factors, including, the will of God, good luck, the absence of factors that can detract, natural ability,and then maybe, a little bit of effort and a little bit of endurance.

If I look back at the 70 years that are behind me, every major thing that I have succeeded in has been because of good luck, and some forces that were outside my control. My efforts were much like those of a sailor guiding a boat being blown along by the wind and trying to make sure it didn't run aground.

The production of a book , in the final analysis must come down to two questions:-

1. --- will its production result in adequate financial reward for all those involved in its production?

2. --- will its production benefit the readers of it in some unique way?

If the answer to these two questions is "yes", then that book probably should be produced and published.

If the answer is "no" then speaking only for myself, that book should not be published, as it has stolen time and resources that could have been better employed in some other way.

There is always a limit on both time and resources:- our only choice is how those two things are used.

This matter of decision is one that must be addressed before the first line of any book is penned. The decision is not one for some vague final consumer, as it is very likely that the final consumer is not fit to judge the value or otherwise of the contents of the book:- if he has read it to seek information, then obviously his own level of knowledge is insufficient to pass judgement.

Thus the concept of publication must be subjected to searching analysis before any book is even into a planning stage, and it must be assessed by a person who has the necessary level of knowledge to carry out this analysis and assessment. Very often the only person with this level of knowledge is the potential author.

If some recent authors had carried out objective assessments of their planned publications prior to picking up the pen to write, then perhaps we would have been spared the seemingly unending parade of re-hashes that have been foisted upon readers and students in many fields, including that of keris study, over the last 20 years or so.

And I'll add a PS to the above.

When we talk about time, we are talking about the measure of a life.

We all only have so many minutes, so many heart beats.

If anybody gives one moment of his or her time what is being given is a part of that person's life.

How do you put a value on the life of another person?

When somebody uses that time to impart information, or knowledge that they have gained by the use of their allotted time, they are giving a gift that is truly beyond the concept of "value".

The fact that we tend to measure that gift in terms of dollars demonstrates that most of us have very little understanding of either the nature of life, or of the nature of knowledge.

[gwirya]

Dear Mr Alan, even though I dont know you personally, I 've read many of your posts and try hard to understand your thought throught it. when I read someone post on a topic and I don't grab it and have to read it two or more times to understand the essence of the body; it is either the post is not clear and written by someone not well-informed or the post is written by someone who has very deep insight of the topic. Alan, to me, you are a very unigue person. you are the only one and one only, a westerner with western education, highly logical, gathering info, testing, draw conclusion supporting the fact, very scientific, and yet have lived in Java for many many years, understand and lived in the culture of keris, learn the art of keris-making, pounding the metal and making the wesi-aji yourself, has privileges to learn from Empu Pauzan and become a student and son of Empu Suparman.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

producing a book, or any kind of writing is work, uses time; if we put time into writing, it must come from somewhere else, and if we need to use time to produce income, the time spent on writing reduces income; once the book has been written, it then needs to be published, and finding a publisher for anything other than a book that will return a profit on sales is a futile search.

In purely economic terms, the production of a book dealing with anything other than the most popularist aspects of the keris is a losing proposition.

It may be possible to defend the production of a book on the keris if that book deals with aspects of the keris that will attract a broad and not necessarily specialist readership, however, books of this nature have been done to the point of being overdone. They may return a dollar profit, but they do not return much profit in the form of knowledge.

From purely business point of view, I totally agree with your economic argument but then when it involves passion and perhaps love, we sometime do things irrationally.
Most people only pursue wealth and status, but in the world how much can we aquire? The stars, the moon, mountains, and flowing waters. Each blade of keris are all there for you to appreciate.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thirdly, there is the motivation in production of a book.

I know of cases where a book has been produced for no other reason than to promote sales for the writer, and in the case of one very well known writer, deliberately incorrect, or inadequate information was provided in that book, in order to protect his own livilihood. When I pointed this out to the writer, his reply was:- "you don't need to tell the whole world everything; show them the door, but don't give them the key, they'll find the key themselves if they deserve to".

I know of other cases where a book has been written, sometimes with the backing of a wealthy benefactor, and for declared altruistic reasons, for the sole purpose of marketing a collection that was subsequently sold.

Then there are the cases, more than a few when we consider the keris, where a book, or books have been produced and privately published simply to feed the ego of the writer and to raise that writer's percieved level of expertise in the eyes of those who do not yet understand sufficient to differentiate between true knowledge and the appearance of knowledge.

If we desire knowledge, we should be prepared to seek that knowledge, not hope that it will be dropped into our laps when we open a book.

But then again, most of us don't have a privilege to seek the knowledge of keris from a living Empu. Nowadays, we seek info mostly through reading books and or browsing internet . And as we gain our knowledge of our interest, we can differentiate between great knowledge books from appearance one.

Reading a book of keris from a writter who possess a level of knowledge as good as a current Empu if not better, will be very interesting and delightful. You hold a great information in the art of keris, if it buried to the ground, it seems like a wasteful of knowledge.

With great knowledge comes great resposibilty

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thus the concept of publication must be subjected to searching analysis before any book is even into a planning stage, and it must be assessed by a person who has the necessary level of knowledge to carry out this analysis and assessment. Very often the only person with this level of knowledge is the potential author.

Very often the person with this level of knowledge/potential author is becoming endangered or perhaps don't exist anymore.

Writing a book is the path to gain Immortality

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your compliments , Gwirya.

I do understand what you are saying, and I can understand that some of what I could put into a publication may be of interest to some people. However, no matter which way we look at this question, there is no getting past the fact that writing takes time and is work.

If I do unpaid work by writing, it means I cannot do paid work, because I have used the time on unpaid work.

If I do not do paid work, my standard of living will suffer.

I'm sorry, but I am not the type of person who is prepared to starve in a garret in order to produce something that may or may not ever be published, and even if it were, the return from it would not be fair recompense for the work involved in producing it.

Time = money.

Work = money.

I need to be paid for time I spend working.

Regrettably I cannot look upon time spent in any serious writing as "hobby" time.


One small correction:- I have not lived in Jawa for longer than three months at a time. I have been visting Jawa for more years than I care to remember, and those visits have mostly been on the basis of once every six to twelve months, but I have never lived there on a permanent basis.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Gustav

There is this old Photo of a Balinese. The Gonjo is "looking" out of the sheath. Do you have seen something similar on some of your balinese kerisses? (Of course there is the question if the sheath is original.)

Regards

This Bali Keris sits proud of the scabbard and it is an original piece.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=painted+bali

Thanks

Gav

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by sipakatuo

Dear Gustav

This is my opnion and to the extend of my limited knowledge.
Speaking about setting of Ganja (Kancing in Bugis term) I saw many style of them in my home town Sulawesi. So it is difficult to say which one is the right setting. Plenty of them just flat, when I say flat means a level with the mouth of warangka, some even slightly sank into the warangka, few shown the upper level or buntut cicak. Through my research in Sulawesi I found no philosophy, reference, or whatsoever about this issue or the knowledge about it has been buried. So I believe it is just a matter of our own preference. The high setting of buntut cicak could be just to make it attractive.

However, I know that in Malaysia dan Singapore they have other opinion about this issue.

Speaking about the setting of gonjo, here I want to share my family's heirlooms and they are as originals as you can see.

Btw, I am just a collector not a dealer or runner. I am here to exchange opinion with you and the rest of members. No point of getting famous or to be acknowledge by everyone. I believe if you have brain and want to be someone then you need to make a book and let other people judge you, by then you can measure your knowledge!. Just read previous threads about the need to claim own identity. My full name is quite long so just call me Andi or Irvan and I live in Jakarta. Thanks and have a nice weekend to everyone.

Hi Sipakatuo,

Thanks for sharing your family heirlooms. Could I enquire if the toli-toli were attached in recent times? The reason for my asking is that the rope do look pretty modern, especially the pink one. What is the reason for attaching the toli-toli? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai Wee

[sipakatuo]

Hai Kai Wee

It is not Toli-Toli, it is called Passiosumange or Passingkerrusumange. There is a difference between Toli-Toli and Passingkerrusumange. Toli-Toli in Bugis means Ear Ring and you can commonly find this object attached in Wanua (Warangka) of Badik or sometimes in Tappi (Keris) too. Passingkerrusumange is the loop itself. It means 'Pengikat Semangat' or knot of spirit. You are correct, the loop here is new because the old one was damaged and so I have to replace it. Passingkerrusumange is also representing a status, in the old days before they wrap this loop around the Wanua, they must spell a mantra. The purpose is to give this loop a spirit (semangat). So whenever we travel along with this Tappi it can give us a 'sign' before bad things happen at home. This is just a belief and culture of the Buginesse in the old days.
There is actually other purpose of it and maybe next time...

Andi Irvan

[BluErf]

Hello Sipakatuo, thanks for sharing the information! Wow, this is interesting indeed. Look forward to part II. Thanks!

[sipakatuo]

Woww No Worries Mate...

[sirek]

hello sipakatuo, very interesting.

is it maybe possible you can you show us how make a properlyToli Toli /Passiosumange/Passingkerrusumange?
are there certain rules, or prescribed dimensions ?

I think it gives the keris a better appearance.