Moro hilt, a question of region.

[mross]

Gav,
Nice blade. I have a predilection to Kamps and have several, three being of the smaller variety. I did not see any sizes listed, must have missed it, but based on the photo it looks like what I call a boys KP. Judgeing from the handle I would say the son of a very high status person. As to the tag, from the Nihonto world; buy the sword not the story.
Michael

[Dimasalang]

One of the nicest Kampis I have seen to date. The Moros from Bayang are Maranaos.
Just to chime in on the paper tag. It goes against military records and personal accounts. This is a well known and documented event and not hard to research. Pershing is one of America greatest military heroes(and it is not because of his accomplishments during the Moro rebellion era). During WWI, he was promoted to General of the Armies(all military forces), only other person to have this rank is George Washington. Pershings background is well documented and tracked.

• Camp Vicars was not established yet in 1901 because 1st Lt Thomas Vicars was still alive in 1901.
• Battle of Pandapatan is also Battle of Bayang, which took place on May 2, 1902. 1st Lt Thomas Vicars died in this battle.
• Pershing did not participate at the Battle of Bayang. But he was a commander at Camp Vicars after the fact.

There might be some truth to the tag...my guess it was added later being it is just a bit off. Possibly a misinterpretation of an event by someone who knew the provenance of the item but was thinking back 10-20 years ago while adding the tag.

As for giving or donating the Kampilan back to the location of origin in the Philippines. To be honest, they would gladly accept it, but I dont see them throwing a parade over it...Im sure they still have plenty. And realistically speaking, museums in the Philippines are not the greatest. Most really do not know how to take care of their items. Example, original documents, they would just laminate them to preserve them..swords, I doubt they know what Ren Wax is. Also, many are not stored in environmental controlled displays or rooms. Philippines is a tropical environment with some seriously high humidity. God forbid if a typhoon that struck Manila the other month ever hit the museum...the sword would be underwater and possibly washed away. Ive been to several museums there and most of their swords on display have rust on them. On top of that, corruption. It is well known fact for items to disappear from museums. I seriously wouldn't be surprised if you see your kampilan up on eBay by next year. The most expensive painting in the Philippines(the Parisian Life by Juan Luna) is an example of this. Painting was tucked away for years, and then finally sold off by a 5th degree family member...ended up on Christies auction and was bought back by a Philippine government company for close to $1millUS. Sorry, but I just have to say I would be against giving it to a Philippine Museum unless it were the National Museum in Manila where they have the capabilities to take care of the piece. Im just rambling now...its Friday, Im happy. haha

[Battara]

Dimasalang, I was told basically the same thing by the people at Antiques Road Show about PI museums right now. Could even go in one door and out the other.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by mross

Gav,
Nice blade. I have a predilection to Kamps and have several, three being of the smaller variety. I did not see any sizes listed, must have missed it, but based on the photo it looks like what I call a boys KP. Judgeing from the handle I would say the son of a very high status person. As to the tag, from the Nihonto world; buy the sword not the story.
Michael

Absolutely Michael,

I didn't even want the story involved in this forum posting but the do gooders and evil lurkers of the world insisted on making there own postings and involving a provenance written on a tag, certainly made for interesting reading but not where I wanted the discussions to go, kind of clouded the sword.
Far too large for a boy, this is massive at over 45inches, the norm being approx 38-39inches in my experience.
I'd be interested to know why at such a size you consider it for a boy?


Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

One of the nicest Kampis I have seen to date. The Moros from Bayang are Maranaos.
Just to chime in on the paper tag. It goes against military records and personal accounts. This is a well known and documented event and not hard to research. Pershing is one of America greatest military heroes(and it is not because of his accomplishments during the Moro rebellion era). During WWI, he was promoted to General of the Armies(all military forces), only other person to have this rank is George Washington. Pershings background is well documented and tracked.

• Camp Vicars was not established yet in 1901 because 1st Lt Thomas Vicars was still alive in 1901.
• Battle of Pandapatan is also Battle of Bayang, which took place on May 2, 1902. 1st Lt Thomas Vicars died in this battle.
• Pershing did not participate at the Battle of Bayang. But he was a commander at Camp Vicars after the fact.

There might be some truth to the tag...my guess it was added later being it is just a bit off. Possibly a misinterpretation of an event by someone who knew the provenance of the item but was thinking back 10-20 years ago while adding the tag.

As for giving or donating the Kampilan back to the location of origin in the Philippines. To be honest, they would gladly accept it, but I dont see them throwing a parade over it...Im sure they still have plenty. And realistically speaking, museums in the Philippines are not the greatest. Most really do not know how to take care of their items. Example, original documents, they would just laminate them to preserve them..swords, I doubt they know what Ren Wax is. Also, many are not stored in environmental controlled displays or rooms. Philippines is a tropical environment with some seriously high humidity. God forbid if a typhoon that struck Manila the other month ever hit the museum...the sword would be underwater and possibly washed away. Ive been to several museums there and most of their swords on display have rust on them. On top of that, corruption. It is well known fact for items to disappear from museums. I seriously wouldn't be surprised if you see your kampilan up on eBay by next year. The most expensive painting in the Philippines(the Parisian Life by Juan Luna) is an example of this. Painting was tucked away for years, and then finally sold off by a 5th degree family member...ended up on Christies auction and was bought back by a Philippine government company for close to $1millUS. Sorry, but I just have to say I would be against giving it to a Philippine Museum unless it were the National Museum in Manila where they have the capabilities to take care of the piece. Im just rambling now...its Friday, Im happy. haha

Thank you, I too must say it the nicest and most complete I have laid eyes on and is a treat to handle.
From memory, well after Pershing received this rank that George Washington was to receive the same rank as it was noted that even in death no one should be of a higher rank than George but equal was acceptable.
Pershing certinly did great things in all forums he appeared in. One could speculate all day about the tag hence why I never wanted to involve it in the posting. I can read it several different ways to draw several different conclusions.
Thank you for the insight to the PI museums too and the possibility of anything could happen be it mother nature or otherwise. It is safe for now whilst in my possession.

Gav

PS. The tiger bells are very Christmasy as I keep telling the boss when she sees me with it in hand, jingle bells jingle bell Kampys all the way....

[Rick]

You won't be bringing it to the office Christmas party I hope .

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

You won't be bringing it to the office Christmas party I hope .

I won't be bringing it to the Christmas party Rick as swords and alcohol don't mix..they rust....I'll be bringing it out to slice the ham and turkey though.

Gav

[mross]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Absolutely Michael,

I didn't even want the story involved in this forum posting but the do gooders and evil lurkers of the world insisted on making there own postings and involving a provenance written on a tag, certainly made for interesting reading but not where I wanted the discussions to go, kind of clouded the sword.
Far too large for a boy, this is massive at over 45inches, the norm being approx 38-39inches in my experience.
I'd be interested to know why at such a size you consider it for a boy?


Gav

Gav,
My bad. Like I said I did not see a size posted, probably missed it. But took a size joke the wrong way and the picture made it look short. No, 45 inches is definitly NOT for a boy. That's a monster. Sorry for the mix up.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by freebooter

I won't be bringing it to the Christmas party Rick as swords and alcohol don't mix..they rust....I'll be bringing it out to slice the ham and turkey though. Gav

How about roast beef and turkey instead, given that ham and Moro swords probably won't like each other?

Joking aside, thanks again for sharing the pics of that superb kampilan!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

How about roast beef and turkey instead, given that ham and Moro swords probably won't like each other?

Joking aside, thanks again for sharing the pics of that superb kampilan!

You are right, I shall treat it better than that

I'll put up more images if I have time of the festive break. The scabbard is particularly interesting in that the designs are different to easch side but both share the same central motif.

Gav