Moro hilt, a question of region.

[Gavin Nugent]

Good people,

A question of region for some research notes on this fine piece I acquired.
The hilt pictured, can it be noted with confidence that it would be from the Maranao people.

Regards

Gav

[Spunjer]

prolly not with confidence, garv, since what we've been working on are theories. Nice complete kampy tho, with scabbard and all. Neat to see it with bells as well.

just out of curiosity, garv, what makes you think this is maranao???

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Spunjer,

I ask due to the reputation and data that comes with this piece.
Lengthy study still needs to be carried out to fully confirm this with accuracy and a number of years of decent still need to be accounted for and confirmed.

Although true origins are not yet fully confirmed, from the data available, it is very plausible given the facts that a Kampalin of this quality (despite not being bone or ivory) with the scabbard shaped and carved as it is, supports it is a sword of Nobility, see notes by Cato, page 58 Moro Swords, paragraph 3 & 4.

What do others out there think to the origins?

Regards

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

I've had a look closer to home (Thanks Jim), Jim referred me to the link to Krieger's work found on this forum. See plate 7.

http://www.vikingsword.com/rila/krieger.html

Can anyone here provide me with larger images of these plates by Krieger? The Kampalins in the images and data that comes the image in plate 7 indicates this piece presented by me is also from the Maranao people.

Gav

[Spunjer]

hi gav,

fair enough. i'm with you on the possibility that, without the usual embellishment associated with datu/sultan, this particular kampy coul've been a chief's. on similar note, as per cato's book, there's a picture of tausugs posing, on page 6. the person in the middle, with the barung drawn out, is the sultan's brother, but if you notice , his barung is the type we normally regard as commoners'.
if at all possible, could you please post the data and reputation that came with this kampy? it might shed a light as to the origin of this kampy. as i've posted earlier, we can just guess as to the provenance, but with data and the manner it was acquired, it could speak volumes, and we'd be much closer to the truth.
regards

[ariel]

Folks, please enlighten me and straighten me out!

I looked at the reference above ( National Museum, Herbert Krieger's descriptions)) and got totally confused.

Plate 7, ## 2 and
3: what I always thought was a Panabas, is called Talibong

Plate 9, ##2-5:same.
#6: what I thought was a Garab, is called Pira.

Plate 12:
#1: pira is called pira
#6: garab is also called pira

Do I have to re-learn everything I managed to know about Moro weapons?????

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Folks, please enlighten me and straighten me out!

Ariel,

Can I suggest a Buddhist retreat and a good Chiropractor

Seriously though...I would not get to put off by old plates, I am certain knowledge has come a long way since 1926 and the most likely explanation as to why that I can think of is there was just not the knowledge base there is today and terms were more generic???

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan.
I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article.

There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)?

The few kampilans I have seen, including the one I had, were quite simple overall without extraneous embellishment aside from the carved hilt, and often a simple metal staple on the guard to which a piece of cloth was attached.

I see what Ariel means on the terminology in the 1926 article, and it does look like there must have been some confusion in terms applied. I think one of the most puzzling terms regarding Philippine weapons that I can recall in my brief experience with them was 'bolo'. After the Spanish-American war I think the term was used for every Filipino weapon from swords to small knives by American GI's souvenier troves.

Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status.
I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons.

I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also,
I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes.
i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor.

All best regards,
Jim

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

These Tiger bells were found all over Asia, from Pakistan to Siberia to Indonesia.
I think the bell's attached on weapons, should serve as amulets.

Besides amulets, tiger bells were used as musical instruments, animal bells (horse bells and cat bells, dogs bells and yak bells), shamanism, dance bells, amulets on wayang puppets, money.

I got it from this internet source. A lot more written about tiger bells can be found there: http://park.org/Guests/Tiger/bells.htm




Maurice

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Gav, I'm glad I could help....actually I have never really studied this particular field of weapons, although I have had an example of kampilan.
I must admit that this example has really piqued my interest, which is what led me to the Krieger 1926 article.

There are a number of questions I have, the first of which is why in the world this example has not drawn the attention of the known enthusiasts on these types of weapons here, yet there seems a lot of activity on the concurrent thread with a kampilan with 'odd' handle

hi jim,
just a hunch, but the kampilan on the other thread is similar to what cato referred to as a rare type, and i believe not too many of those types have been posted anywhere. the odd handle doesn't necessarily denote timorese, or mindanao, rather it's just another expression of a kampilan hilt.
somewhat similar, but provenanced in mindanao, is this one from cotabato, circa 1899:

Actually though, with my new found interest in these, I am curious about these bells mounted on the guard...I understand these are called 'tiger bells'?
I would presume these have some sort of talismanic or auspicious purpose, but can anyone out there be more specific?

maurice's link is spot on on this...

Then there are the curious wavy elements on the guard to which these are attached......if I recall correctly, weren't some kampilans, presumably Moro, with mail hand guards attached to these (but usually on one side)?

some staples do have mailed handguard, although it's not too common.

Also, if I understand correctly, the term 'datu' seems a bit broadly applied, and these tribal figures from what I understand carried varying degree of position....though I am not clear on whether this was based on a certain heirarchy among them within certain tribes or whether subtribes or location might have determined such status. I have seen references noting that retinues of these datus characterized their degree of status.
I would imagine that that same application might be reflected in thier weapons.

datu is indeed a broad term, either acquired by birth right, or bestowed upon. basically, datus are leader of a certain clan. some datus were well off, while some were very rich and/or influential, enabling them to have dozens of followers. bestowed upon meaning it could be granted to a deserving person. a good example is pedro cuevas, a tagalog convict who escaped a spanish prison in zamboanga in the 1800's and crossed the basilan. he eventually converted into islam, killed a datu of that island in a duel and later on became known as datu kalun.
weapon embellishment doesn't necessarily translate to their status. his retinue might carry a kris embellished with silver and ivory, but it doesn't mean he "outranks" another datu in his tribe who has a banati pommeled kris.

I would really like to hear the thoughts of those out there who focus on the study of these kampilan's in some degree, regarding these things. Also,
I think the question on the regional attribution is interesting, and wonder if certain features would be indicative of certain regions or tribes.
i.e. the unusual hilt on the other thread is stated to suggest Timor.

All best regards,
Jim

as i've mentioned on my earlier post, at this point it's difficult to i'd a certain moro kampilan without hard provenance. i wouldn't be surprise if certain features would be indicative of what tribe they belong to, but even then, due to the proximity of the maranao and its subtribes, and the maguidanao, there's bound to have influences between the two. hope this helps...

[Battara]

Folks, I just received these pictures from a "lurker" who was going to also bid on this same item. He received these pictures of the original tag (that got lost) before bidding was closed. He offers these as an answer to the question of origin. Thank you to our lurker friend.

[Jim McDougall]

Maurice and Spunjer,
Thank you so much guys! for taking the time to post this most helpful information, which really helps as I try to assimilate an understanding of these. I always admire the outstanding command you guys and the others have on these and other fields I have never gone into in much degree, and appreciate the detail.

All the best,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Battara

Folks, I just received these pictures from a "lurker" who was going to also bid on this same item. He received these pictures of the original tag (that got lost) before bidding was closed. He offers these as an answer to the question of origin. Thank you to our lurker friend.

Thank you Battara. I was aware of the 'presumed provenance' but were not prepared to accept the tag notations until further investigation has taken place once I received the item. There was no reason to cloud efforts to establish the style and form with focus on the stated provenance

Obviously there was intent to bid on it due to these details.
Do you Battara think it is of the Maranao people?
Does Mr lurker care to share any information?
I have been told by many here you are very knowledgeable on the subject Battara and I like all readers would love to hear more thoughts on this piece?

You note the tag as missing? Whilst now having these images printed for all to see it may deter the tag being used on another such example and miss leading history.

I look forward to hearing more from you as you are more learned on the subject.

Gav

[David]

I found this information on Wikipedia in regards the the Camp Vickers mentioned on the tag. I saw no mention of a "Battle of Camp Vickers" and it doesn't seem to have been build until 1902. It was indeed under Capt. Pershing's command. There was a 'Battle of Pandapatan" however which apparently was just a mile from where the camp was :
The expeditionary force built Camp Vickers one mile south of Pandapatan, and Davis assigned Pershing to Baldwin's command as an intelligence officer and as director of Moro affairs. As director, Pershing had a veto over Baldwin's movements, which was an unstable arrangement. This arrangement was tested when survivors of Pandapatan began building a cotta at Bacalod. Baldwin wanted to move on the hostile Moros immediately, but Pershing warned that doing so could create an anti-American coalition of the surrounding datus, while some patient diplomacy could establish friendly relations with most of the Moros, isolating the hostile minority. Baldwin grudgingly agreed. On June 30, Pershing assumed command of Camp Vickers, and Baldwin returned to Malabang. A command the size of Camp Vickers would normally have gone to an officer with the rank of Major, and a careful shuffling of personnel would be required to ensure that reinforcements to the Camp did not include officers that were senior to Pershing.
On July 4, 1902, President Theodore Roosevelt issued a proclamation declaring an end to the Philippine Insurrection and a cessation of hostilities in the Philippines "except in the country inhabited by the Moro tribes, to which this proclamation does not apply."[3] Later that month, Davis was promoted and replaced Chaffee as the supreme commander of American forces in the Philippines. Command of the Mindanao-Jolo Department went to Brig. Gen. Samuel S. Sumner. Meanwhile, Pershing settled down to conduct diplomacy with the surrounding Moros, and a July 4th celebration had 700 guests from neighboring rancherias. In September 1902, he lead the Macui Expedition, which resulted in a victory that did much to establish American dominance in the area. On February 10, 1903, Pershing was declared a datu by the formerly hostile Pandita Sajiduciaman of the Bayan Moros (who had been defeated at the Battle of Pandapatan)—the only American to be so honored. Pershing's career at Camp Vickers culminated in the March Around Lake Lanao during April and May 1903. Also known as the Marahui Expedition, it included the Battle of Bacolod and First Battle of Taraca but was otherwise peaceful. This expedition quickly became a symbol of American control of the Lake Lanao region and was regarded as a landmark event by the inhabitants of that region.

[Spunjer]

did this tag came with it???
at a glance, it does seem to carry a lot of weight, since the names and places were significant, but it doesn't make any sense. during the moro campaign, there were a lot of moro/american skirmishes, but regarding major battles, there were few. as david mentioned, there was no Battle of camp vickers. if what the tag meant "battle of pandapatan", then yes, it happened. it was the first hostile action between the moros and the american forces. to explain why it doesn't make any sense, one has to look at what really happened.

it was in may, 1902 when seven companies from the 27th Infantry, and with the help from 25th Battery Field Artillery took the battle to the moros. technically the battle was labeled as Battle of Bayan in history books. the americans encountered two kotas or forts in this battle, namely kota binadayan, the smaller one, and kota pandapatan, were the major battle was fought. it was in kota pandapatan, where lieut. thomas vicars (vickers) got killed. as far as who led the battalions; major william scott led the first attack (at binadayan), but then col frank baldwin assumed command at the attack on pandapatan. when these were all happening, capt john pershing was in marawi, miles away from the actual battle. in the end, the sultan of bayan, his heir, the rajah muda, and the sultan of pandapatan were killed.
weeks later, a camp was built not too far from the battle site, and it was named after the lieutenant. it was then when capt. pershing took command of the camp.
going back to the tag, the chronology, characters, etc., are just screwed up somehow:

• there were no battles in 1901
• battle of camp vickers never happened
• john pershing wasn't the commander during the battle

the tag does look old though. is it possible that this was added a few years later, to garner interest to early days collectors? military catalogs such as bannerman, who has been printing catalogs since the 1800's, comes to mind. i'm pretty sure there were collectors back then, who, like there present incarnations, would love to get a piece of a well-provenanced weapon.

just my .02 cents..

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gents,

I have hundreds of notes and extracts here from Congress to well known authors and the information you have is very much what many online history books tell but it differs greatly across many researching facets. The battle of Bayan was 1902 as indicated but much more surrounds this scene.

There are records I have of Skirmishes prior to this event with the camp being in these notes and being involved in conflict enroute in 1901. It is a foggy journey and one that will come to light in time but things are getting far ahead of where I wanted to take this for the moment.

The provenance is something I wanted to leave out of the picture in its entirety as it is glossing over to much foundation work that needs to be done first and whilst I appreciate your interest in providing information to sustain or dispel the tag, first thing is first and back to the subject at hand for me, would this be considered a Kampalin form the region of southern lake Lanao?

Battara, you note the LURKER as saying the tag was missing, is this fact and if so, do they know the where abouts of it?
Actually, if anyone knows where it is, it belongs with this sword.
If all proves to be correct with further study of aquisition and decent, someone has tampered with a very important piece of Moro/American History.
I must also note a number of enquiries have already come through my site asking if this is for sale, I will state for the record, it is not.
It was my hope to present this to the Pershing Museum should it all ring true as that both the sword and the tag belong there for all to view and understand.

Thanks

Gav

[Spunjer]

hi gav,

sword collection might be my hobby, but first and foremost, filipino history, specifically moro regions is my passion. i'm afraid that none of what i mentioned came from wikipedia, or any website online if that's what you're inferring. these were based on what i know, and what i've researched. to cite my references, besides books published in that era, i would have to say, came from actual annual reports made by commanding officers in that region during the moro campaigns, diaries passages specifically from pershing, davies, et al, unpublished memoirs, letters, etc, which can be readily had using the local college libraries. also, we have libraries here in ohio which i have done my researches, notably the rutherford hayes museum, who's son, webb hayes was an ardent ethnographic collector, and was one of the first american to broker with the moros while the philippine war was happening. also, there's lots of records at the mckinley museum, who, incidentally was the president of that era when the war broke out. these presidential libraries are but two hour drive from where i live. i have consulted for the hayes museum as well, that's why you will see my name noted various times on their website. all my passion was a direct result in trying to learn more about my collection, and the history tied with it. yes, it's nice to know the significance of those squiggles on the blade, but to know the history behind them is more satisfying, knowing what they were thinking about, etc. etc. it gives one a whole new perspective.

yes you are right that there are much more that surrounds the scene during that fateful day in may 2, 1902. the americans didn't just wake up that day and decided to have a war with the moros. you're right in that there were skirmishes, which led to lots and lots of bicharas, or parleys, and were primarily being made prior and leading to this first battle, and that was what pershing was hedging on, in preventing the battle. but you have a veteran from the then recent indian wars and medal of honor recipient who's mantra was "a good moro is a dead moro" (baldwin), you have an inevitable battle on hand. but this i can assure you, battle of camp vickers never happened, and capt pershing became the senior commander of this post AFTER the battle of pandapatan. and none of these happened in 1901, since all the aforementioned incidents didn't happen until 1902. camp vickers, the battle of pandapatan, capt pershing as the commanding officer, etc.. all 1902 headlines.
if indeed you have the notes and extracts, it should back up everything what i have posted so far.

not to sustain or dispel the tag itself, rather, it's what traveled with the kampilan through time. sometimes, we get our clue from the sword itself, telling us where it originated from, usually by the art form that has some similarity with the okir of that region. but then again there are times when these swords remain quiet, and what we have to go with are those incessant tags that has volumes to say, whether we like the final result or not. i don't understand why you would put the provenance aside, when it offers the best logical clue. if what the tags says it's true, wouldn't it be safe to say then that this was owned by a maranao warrior, hence a lake lanao kampilan?
this particular kampilan attracted me for a couple reasons: the completeness of it, and one of the finest i've seen.

if your intention is to present that kampilan to pershing's museum, that would be cool. understand tho, that with just that tag backing it up, it will never be 100 percent certain that this was a part of his collection. fortunately, he already have an extensive collection of moro weapons.
what is certain though, and without a shadow of a doubt, is if you present this to the National Museum in the philippines, or better yet, at the Aga Khan Museum in Mindanao State University (Marawi City, Lanao del sur), the moro people will get to view and understand this fantastic specimen of their ancestor.

regards
ron

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

if your intention is to present that kampilan to pershing's museum, that would be cool. understand tho, that with just that tag backing it up, it will never be 100 percent certain that this was a part of his collection. fortunately, he already have an extensive collection of moro weapons.
what is certain though, and without a shadow of a doubt, is if you present this to the National Museum in the philippines, or better yet, at the Aga Khan Museum in Mindanao State University (Marawi City, Lanao del sur), the moro people will get to view and understand this fantastic specimen of their ancestor.

I would second this. IF you are really feeling the need to donate this to a museum, why not give it back to the people of origin?
BTW, i doubt that someone "tampered" with this tag. It probably just fell off. The string broke or the paper tore. It's obviously old. I don't see a need for conspiracy to explain this and i can't see why anyone would remove it just to hide information or provenance. The tag was probably placed there a while ago, but long enough after the event so that particular facts (dates, names) may have become confused or blurred.
Is there any chance we could see the blade of this kamp? I don't know alot about kamps, but perhaps the blade itself could supply clues to it's tribal origins.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hi gav,


if your intention is to present that kampilan to pershing's museum, that would be cool. understand tho, that with just that tag backing it up, it will never be 100 percent certain that this was a part of his collection. fortunately, he already have an extensive collection of moro weapons.

Outstanding Ron, well spoken and thank you. It does seem I am and I will be going over a lot of ground you have already covered.
With the passage quoted above Ron, my point exactly. This is why I never wanted the tag that Mr lurker, (fielded by Battara) posted.
So much more can first be done to satisfy origins, decent etc. Relying on a tag to tell me where the sword is from can be counter productive and non conclusive.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

what is certain though, and without a shadow of a doubt, is if you present this to the National Museum in the philippines, or better yet, at the Aga Khan Museum in Mindanao State University (Marawi City, Lanao del sur), the moro people will get to view and understand this fantastic specimen of their ancestor.
regards
ron

A very interesting statement Ron, and well noted. What ever direction is ultimately decided the information and images will be sharded with anyone who wishes to know, hopfully a sound base can be provided for further indepth study by others.

Many thanks

Gav

[Battara]

Being very busy it has been difficult to get back to the forum. That being said he offered the information as another piece of the puzzle to consider. Sometimes later generations will get the information confused from stories told by the veterans. Not too shocking. I think it was nice that the other person tried to give some help to this inquiry.

As far as origins are concerned, I would not be shocked if this were Maranao since this was a favorite of theirs. What does give me some pause are the wonderful tiger bells. I would love to own one with tiger bells. Not too common and a very nice piece. Even the scabbard carving is of good quality. I agree with Ron in that the great value of this is the completeness of the piece. It is rare for these to have scabbards, much less well carved scabbards intact. Then the bells are an added bonus. I don't remember where Camp Vickers was located in relation to Maranao or Maguindanao territory (of the Battle of Pandapatan). Perhaps this would be a good place to start.

Although the blade does not look to be the typical type of blade usually seen in Moro kampilans, this does not preclude it necessarily from being from Mindanao. We are still learning from examples like this one.

I have a fossil molar barong for example. Fossil molar is rare on Moro pieces and only seen on kris. Yet my example has traits of being Samal and is the only one documented (by me). It is the only one in existence so far. I have learned some new things from this piece.

I know that your piece will shed light one some other things regarding this type of piece.

Before you send it off (if you do) would you post pictures of the piece in it's entirety?

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I don't remember where Camp Vickers was located in relation to Maranao or Maguindanao territory (of the Battle of Pandapatan). Perhaps this would be a good place to start.

Well, if you can place Pandapatan then Camp Vickers is one mile south of there.

Originally Posted by Battara

Although the blade does not look to be the typical type of blade usually seen in Moro kampilans, this does not preclude it necessarily from being from Mindanao. We are still learning from examples like this one.

I am confused. I don't see any photos of the blade in this thread, only the blade of Ron's example.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by David

I am confused. I don't see any photos of the blade in this thread, only the blade of Ron's example.

OOPS! Got confused with another thread. Would still like to see pictures of the whole thing.

[Gavin Nugent]

I'll post further images this week, just a little short on time atm.

Thanks

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

As promised.

Gav

[Battara]

What a wonderful piece (grumble, grumble, envy, envy). Congratulations!

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Battara,

I have question;

The scabbard is seperated, as it is a couple of days away yet I do not know if it was rattan bound or kept together another way. Currently it is taped together, I will heat the tape with a hair dryer when it arrives to remove the tape but there will for sure be some sticky residue left behind. Not wanting to damage the timber, stain or patina in any way, what would be the best approach to cleaning up any stickyness left behind???

Thanks

Gav

[Battara]

I wish I had a good answer for you. Can't think of anything else (besides rubbing it off) that does not soak into the wood.

[Gavin Nugent]

Another question,

Having only ever handled 3 other smaller Kampys and from what Cato notes in his book Moro swords, this pieces seems to fall out of the norm in size being 45&1/2 inches long out of the scabbard.

Is this length the norm for swords of Status?

Gav

[ibeam]

Size does not matter....it's how you use it that gives you the status

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ibeam

Size does not matter....it's how you use it that gives you the status

Hahahahaha....well spoken, there are many proverbs to support this.

Gav