GUNONG

Ian · 16th May 2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

I don't think the coin is U.S. currency. I do see the remains of an eagle on the other side, but it doesn't look like the kind i have seen on old U.S. coins. Also are the end letters "CA" but i still don't think this is a remnant of the word America. Rick (rsword) suggested a Mexican origin for the coin. I also wonder if this is not a replacement part.

During the US occupation of the Philippines in the first half of the 20th C., the Philippine coins were stamped "United States of America" and had a Philippine form of the eagle stamped on some of them. The coin probably dates from the period of US occupation.

Ian.

Battara · 16th May 2005, 10:46 PM

Spunjer and I both saw that puppy here in Louisville. It is an older piece and nice. The coin is silver and Mexican in origin, going back to the mid-last quarter of the 19th century with the rays of the sun and a cap. These coins were common just before the turn of the century in many Spanish colonies.

nechesh · 16th May 2005, 11:27 PM

Jose, thanks for the addition varification on the coin's origin. I'm not sure about the silver work on the sheath, but i think the ferrule is probably original to the blade.
On a related note i wondered what opinions might be on the example below. It is most probably from Batangas and i assume it was meant for export, but it seems a high quality than similar "tourist" gunongs from the area. The sheath is horn (on both sides; some of these have wood on the back side) as is the hilt. the ferrule and cross piece are brass and there are inlays of M.O.P. with a square "button" of M.O.P. at the pommel.As you can see, both the hilt and the sheath have okir like carvings. I wonder if it is even proper to refer to it as a gunong. Does anyone know if this blade form was used traditionally in that area or do they just turn them out for export? This one seems a bit older than similar examples i have seen (and small - blade 5 3/4", overall almost 11")but i would still imagine it is from the second half of the 20thC. Any ideas?

tom hyle · 17th May 2005, 12:17 AM

It's a gunong. Not real old, I agree. The blade with its tapered width is a form I see on old-seeming pieces. It appears to be in the handle backwards, though this is not real uncommon, and as it is a fairly symmetrical example, not terribly affecting.....

Federico · 17th May 2005, 09:48 PM

Nice gunong. Looks like it may be original and complete to me, but then I dont have the benefit of seeing it person. All the hallmarks of an older piece, from blade, to hilt, to scabbard, to materials (Mexican silver dollars were standard currency by early US administrations in PI for many years), etc... Nothing much to add. Though the hidden assassin weapon part, Ive seen it come up in records and memoirs, eg. this dagger was used to kill so and so it was hidden in the turban, etc... But then I cant say this how common this was. My own feeling is that it may have been a rare occurance, like hiding other weapons, but was not the intended daily wear. There are pictures of guongs being worn more openly, and not hidden. Given how plain the vast majority of the older ones are, my own feeling is that they were not intended as assassin weapons, but rather the utility side was more common. The older ones definitely feel more comfortable in the hand to use than the newer ones, and the majority of the old ones I have encountered, given their age, have shown quite a bit of usage which would seem in keeping with a utility origin. Oh, well just some of what I have seen and thought, but anyways just another guess.

As for the Bataangas piece, the Xtian areas, particularly around the Katipunan era, did have a resurgence in traditional forms, and one sees daggers with kris blades popping up with greater frequency. I do not know if we can truly call these piece gunongs, but I figure punal de kris would work just as well.

Rick · 17th May 2005, 10:19 PM

About a Luzon provenance for your latest example .
The scabbard has a very strong flavor of Mindanao IMO .
Quite similar to the various Women's work knives we see .

Bill · 17th May 2005, 11:41 PM

as often said, its hard to tell from pictures. The sheath is old, it shows wear marks that should continue, some what, onto the silver work but doesn't apear to. It would make no sense for updating the sheath to silver work without replacing the wood, unless you wanted to make the piece look old, which the original wearer would not. The silver looks to be a very thin guage compared to what we normaly see. As the silver is turned there is some slight bends, in time & with use they would spread out and look like multiple depressions instead of bends. The twisted silver wire looks modern machine made. The stampings are not what is common on Moro pieces, they are well formed & should have deposits that are almost impossible to clean without removing from the hilt. The coin looks to have been put through some sort of rolling mill, the center cut with nice square corners, instead of filed. All these things give me the feel that all the silver work is less then 25 yrs, just my opinion. I'm sure you could take it to a old fashion jeweler, & get a good estimate on when the work was done.

16th May 2005, 11:27 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Jose, thanks for the addition varification on the coin's origin. I'm not sure about the silver work on the sheath, but i think the ferrule is probably original to the blade. On a related note i wondered what opinions might be on the example below. It is most probably from Batangas and i assume it was meant for export, but it seems a high quality than similar "tourist" gunongs from the area. The sheath is horn (on both sides; some of these have wood on the back side) as is the hilt. the ferrule and cross piece are brass and there are inlays of M.O.P. with a square "button" of M.O.P. at the pommel.As you can see, both the hilt and the sheath have okir like carvings. I wonder if it is even proper to refer to it as a gunong. Does anyone know if this blade form was used traditionally in that area or do they just turn them out for export? This one seems a bit older than similar examples i have seen (and small - blade 5 3/4", overall almost 11")but i would still imagine it is from the second half of the 20thC. Any ideas? Attached Images

17th May 2005, 10:19 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Not So Sure About a Luzon provenance for your latest example . The scabbard has a very strong flavor of Mindanao IMO . Quite similar to the various Women's work knives we see .

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16th May 2005, 10:46 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Spunjer and I both saw that puppy here in Louisville. It is an older piece and nice. The coin is silver and Mexican in origin, going back to the mid-last quarter of the 19th century with the rays of the sun and a cap. These coins were common just before the turn of the century in many Spanish colonies.

17th May 2005, 12:17 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It's a gunong. Not real old, I agree. The blade with its tapered width is a form I see on old-seeming pieces. It appears to be in the handle backwards, though this is not real uncommon, and as it is a fairly symmetrical example, not terribly affecting.....

17th May 2005, 09:48 PM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Nice gunong. Looks like it may be original and complete to me, but then I dont have the benefit of seeing it person. All the hallmarks of an older piece, from blade, to hilt, to scabbard, to materials (Mexican silver dollars were standard currency by early US administrations in PI for many years), etc... Nothing much to add. Though the hidden assassin weapon part, Ive seen it come up in records and memoirs, eg. this dagger was used to kill so and so it was hidden in the turban, etc... But then I cant say this how common this was. My own feeling is that it may have been a rare occurance, like hiding other weapons, but was not the intended daily wear. There are pictures of guongs being worn more openly, and not hidden. Given how plain the vast majority of the older ones are, my own feeling is that they were not intended as assassin weapons, but rather the utility side was more common. The older ones definitely feel more comfortable in the hand to use than the newer ones, and the majority of the old ones I have encountered, given their age, have shown quite a bit of usage which would seem in keeping with a utility origin. Oh, well just some of what I have seen and thought, but anyways just another guess. As for the Bataangas piece, the Xtian areas, particularly around the Katipunan era, did have a resurgence in traditional forms, and one sees daggers with kris blades popping up with greater frequency. I do not know if we can truly call these piece gunongs, but I figure punal de kris would work just as well.

17th May 2005, 11:41 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	as often said, its hard to tell from pictures. The sheath is old, it shows wear marks that should continue, some what, onto the silver work but doesn't apear to. It would make no sense for updating the sheath to silver work without replacing the wood, unless you wanted to make the piece look old, which the original wearer would not. The silver looks to be a very thin guage compared to what we normaly see. As the silver is turned there is some slight bends, in time & with use they would spread out and look like multiple depressions instead of bends. The twisted silver wire looks modern machine made. The stampings are not what is common on Moro pieces, they are well formed & should have deposits that are almost impossible to clean without removing from the hilt. The coin looks to have been put through some sort of rolling mill, the center cut with nice square corners, instead of filed. All these things give me the feel that all the silver work is less then 25 yrs, just my opinion. I'm sure you could take it to a old fashion jeweler, & get a good estimate on when the work was done.