On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

But on a more serious note... how real is this?

By the way, if you're referring to the alleged use of a "narcotic root" by the Igorot warriors during battle, it's the first time I've heard about it. If Nonoy Tan is reading this, then maybe he can shed more light on the matter.

As for a warrior getting berserk via the botanical route, I think most of us know that certain Viking warriors 'popularized' this.

And the very word itself (berserk) is derived from Old Norse of the same meaning.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

History

Hilda Ellis-Davidson draws a parallel between berserkers and the mention by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII in his book De cerimoniis aulae byzantinae ("Book of Ceremonies of the Byzantine court") of a "Gothic Dance" performed by members of his Varangian Guard (Norse warriors working in the service of the Byzantine Empire), who took part wearing animal skins and masks: she believes this may have been connected with berserker rites.

In 1015, Jarl Eiríkr Hákonarson of Norway outlawed berserkers. Grágás, the medieval Icelandic law code, sentenced berserker warriors to outlawry. By the 1100s, organised berserker war-bands had disappeared.

King Harald Fairhair's use of berserker "shock troops" broadened his sphere of influence. Other Scandinavian kings used berserkers as part of their army of hirdmen and sometimes ranked them as equivalent to a royal bodyguard. It may be that some of those warriors only adopted the organisation or rituals of berserk war-bands or used the name as a deterrent or claim of their ferocity.

Still, some scholars consider the frenzied and indomitable berserker and his bloodshot eyes to stand right alongside horned Viking helmets as a "feature of later literary [works] rather than contemporary historical ones", placing the legitimacy of Icelandic sagas as historical records into question. Little Icelandic literature was recorded before the middle of the Thirteenth Century, more than two hundred years after the conversion of Iceland to Christianity. The sagas are broadly interested in history, but they are re-tellings of legend and in no way constitute a proper historical record. The family sagas in particular shed more light on 13th- and 14th-Century ideas about the 9th-11th centuries than they do on the legendary period itself.

Irish hero Setanta (Cúchulainn) is said to have been a berserker in some legends.

Theories on the causes of the berserkergang

Theories about what caused berserker behaviour include ingestion of materials with psychoactive properties, psychological processes, and medical conditions.

Modern scholars believe certain examples of berserker rage to have been induced voluntarily by the consumption of drugs such as the hallucinogenic mushroom Amanita muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric or fly Amanita (Howard D. Fabing. "On Going Berserk: A Neurochemical Inquiry." Scientific Monthly. 83 [Nov. 1956] p. 232), or massive quantities of alcohol (Robert Wernick. The Vikings. Alexandria VA: Time-Life Books. 1979. p. 285). While such practices would fit in with ritual usages, other explanations for the berserker's madness have been put forward, including self-induced hysteria, epilepsy, mental illness or genetic flaws (Peter G. Foote and David m. Wilson. The Viking Achievement. London: Sidgewick & Jackson. 1970. p. 285).

A Horizon Book on Vikings claims[citation needed] that some chieftains would hold their berserkers in reserve during a battle. Once a portion of the enemy line appeared to tire or weaken, the chieftains would send the berserkers charging into the enemy ranks to hopefully open a break and even panic the enemy. The book also claimed that while on sea voyages close to land, berserkers were sometimes asked to go ashore to find objects on land to wrestle or bash to give vent to their fury.

Botanists have suggested the behaviour might be tied to ingestion of bog myrtle (Myrica gale syn: Gale palustris), a plant that was one of the main spices in alcoholic beverages in Scandinavia. The drawback is that it increases the hangover headache afterwards. Drinking alcoholic beverages spiced with bog myrtle the night before going to battle might have resulted in unusually aggressive behaviour.

The notion that Nordic Vikings used the fly agaric mushroom to produce their berserker rages was first suggested by the Swedish professor Samuel Ödman in 1784. Ödman based his theory on reports about the use of fly agaric among Siberian shamans. The notion has become widespread since the 19th century, but no contemporary sources mention this use or anything similar in their description of berserkers. In addition, the injection of bufotenine from Bufo marinus toad skin into humans was shown to produce similar symptoms to the "Berserker" descriptions. These findings, first examined by Howard Fabing in 1956, were later linked to the induction of zombie characteristics by ethnobotanists in 1983.

A simpler theory attributes the behaviour to drunken rage. It is also possible that berserkers worked themselves into their frenzy through purely psychological processes, perhaps using frenzied rituals and dances. According to Saxo Grammaticus they also drank bear or wolf blood.

Parallels in other cultures

Among the Irish, Cúchulainn acted in the 'battle frenzy', or 'contortion', and many other famous Irish warriors from the pre-Christian period became possessed and frenzied. They are described in texts such as The Tain as foaming at the mouth and not calming down after battle until doused with cold water.

Similar behaviour is described in the Iliad, where warriors who are "possessed" by a god or goddess exhibit superhuman powers.
In historical times, the Spartan warrior Aristodemus is mentioned as acting with a berserker-like fury at the Battle of Plataea, to redeem himself from accusations of having acted with cowardice at Thermopylae.

Berzerk behavior is also similar to the Amok frenzy described among Moro tribesmen in the Philippines and among other tribes in Malaysia.

It's a long read but I thought it was interesting.

[fearn]

Hi Migueldiaz,

I thought they'd actually tested these two theories on the BBC (berserkers: drunk or on magic mushrooms). They did it by having a volunteer whack at targets with period weapons sober and under the influence. Their conclusion was that the alcohol (and especially the hallucinogenic mushroom) significantly degraded the subject's performance.

I'm not saying that people didn't go into battle drug, on meth, or similar. Still, I think it's possible to go berserk without drugs, and probably most of the berserks did. One thing from the sagas I've read is that the berserkers were always potentially violent, and that was part of the problem with dealing with them. Psychotic rage might be a better explanation.

Best,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Thanks migueldiaz... my how far have we gotten from shit-knife?
At least we're still borderline still on topic with the drugs!

There are a lot of disgruntled youth, people with terrible upbringings, and psychopaths. Give them a sanctioned outlet with hysteria-inducing rituals, intoxicants available, and war... and they will flock together for that. While strong and disciplined glory/booty-seeking Viking warriors with spears, axes, swords, and shield, backed up by bowmen were the back-bone.. the bersarkers were probably more of a psychological effect on the enemy.

Imagine an enemy who is obviously crazy, swinging at you with 100% the entire time, not slowing down, shot with two arrows already and still coming... that is somewhat inhuman and scary.

It's possible that they used drugs, but like fearn said I think it's more likely that many were psychopaths to begin with.


However, do any of you know of the corvo? It is a curved knife from Chile, and was famously used in the War of the Pacific by Chilean soldiers. They would be given Chupilca del diablo (a mix of black gunpowder with aguardiente) that made the men crazy and violent. May not have been quite as effective as machine guns and rifles, but the sight of crazed men lobbing off your friends' heads with curved knives must be shocking. Parallels can be found all over the place.

[Jim McDougall]

Still interesting stuff guys, some of it gettin' kinda weird, but as we get into topics like pyschological effects in battle, and here and there the essence of weaponry as applied, the degree of pertinance stubbornly holds.

The use of psychological warfare absolutely cannot be discounted, and combat and associated trauma can only be realized as monumental and surreal. One of the best books I have found that addresses this phenomenon is "The Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan. He presents interesting perspective on this subject, but even his descriptions must be thought of as relatively civilized compared to warfare in earlier times, when mankind had only nominal contact with the concept of civilization.

I absolutely agree with Fearn, that the use of induced rage or intense combativeness with the use of certain drugs via botanicals is in many cases less likely, and that often temporal instigation could bring an individual to points of frenzy and near hysteria. There have been many investigations into these kinds of mind sets on various works, one book that I can think of is "The Mind in the Cave" discussing early man and shamanic activity using things such as chanting, drum rhythms and mental focus that could bring on trances and surreal intensity.

Musical psychologica is well known in combat, and loud chanting, beating of shields and shouting, and variations of noise was often, if not typically employed to dissuade or disconcert the enemy before contact.
In Scotland,besides the well known discarding of clothing and screaming charges of Celts, many berserks and then the Scots, was notably terrifying.
The bagpipe, though not indiginous to Scotland, became a well known device to stir the combativeness of thier forces, as well as to frighten the enemy. Indeed, these instruments were ultimately proscribed after the last rebellion as they were classed as a weapon!

The berserks, and I think warriors of these associated regions and times, were not necessarily inherently psychotic, but more attuned to violence and a certain disassociation with consequences of terrible carnage. This, along with vehement beliefs in supernatural dogma, enabled them to use self focused anxiety, induced rage and adrenalin into a frenzied state that exceeded the imaginations of the average person in trying to understand.

It has been documented that even in the aftermath of intense cavalry engagements, survivors were often seen sitting upright in thier saddles, staring emptily in a daze, with tears streaming down thier cheeks, not from sadness or fear, but from release of the power of inimaginable adrenalin and rage.

In many cases recorded, probably many times over unknown, combatants were not even aware of terrible wounds they had received, and were literally still fighting when they should have been either down or even dead.
In the Sudan, the mistermed 'dervish' warriors would tightly wrap themselves with material to sustain them even beyond potentially fatal wounds from gunfire, so they would be able to carry further into point of contact, despite numerous bullets in them. While this effort certainly might have given them some potential endurance, it was more likely the religiously charged drive that projected them so intensely. Thier faith would certainly have precluded any use of any sort of intoxication to produce this effect.

The psychological effect of the appearance of many weapons is well established, and this has been discussed many times over the years here, however,the psychological state of the warrior himself however, has not.

He, as a virtual living weapon, is essentially the topic here, and as such, the discussion serves well.

All best regards,
Jim

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I absolutely agree with Fearn, that the use of induced rage or intense combativeness with the use of certain drugs via botanicals is in many cases less likely, and that often temporal instigation could bring an individual to points of frenzy and near hysteria.
[...]
The berserks, and I think warriors of these associated regions and times, were not necessarily inherently psychotic, but more attuned to violence and a certain disassociation with consequences of terrible carnage. This, along with vehement beliefs in supernatural dogma, enabled them to use self focused anxiety, induced rage and adrenalin into a frenzied state that exceeded the imaginations of the average person in trying to understand.

Very good point. The mindset of a person can be enough to make them "berserk" let alone drug-induced state.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In many cases recorded, probably many times over unknown, combatants were not even aware of terrible wounds they had received, and were literally still fighting when they should have been either down or even dead.

That still happens today where a victim will be fighting off his assailant, or a cop fighting with a criminal... and thanks to adrenaline and focus, bullets and deep knife wounds are sometimes disregarded by the wounded as they keep on fighting. Many knife-attack victims are in a hand to hand fight only to realize they have been cut badly by a surprise-knife... but sometimes they had even killed their opponent before finding out that they have knife-wounds...

They say there is such a thing as a "10 second rule"... and even if mortally wounded, he can probably still kill you in that 10 seconds when he is enraged and pumping pull of adrenaline.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In the Sudan, the mistermed 'dervish' warriors would tightly wrap themselves with material to sustain them even beyond potentially fatal wounds from gunfire, so they would be able to carry further into point of contact, despite numerous bullets in them. While this effort certainly might have given them some potential endurance, it was more likely the religiously charged drive that projected them so intensely. Thier faith would certainly have precluded any use of any sort of intoxication to produce this effect.

Reminds me of the Moro juramentado...

[aiontay]

At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? We've got the Amazon priestess of the Philippines, and one of the versions of the origins of the balisong knife is that it is a woman's weapon, or one that women frequently used. Given that women's daily chores in many traditional cultures would be very blade dependent, maybe the focus on berserkers might obscure lots of other knives, improvised and otherwise used by women. In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.

And how about knives made of river cane? They were extremely common in the SE USA. I've tried to make them and have never been successful. Does anyone have any information on how it was done?

[migueldiaz]

Some more info re extreme mental stress experienced by warriors during battle, taken from this Cannae battle article, using works by Marshall and Keegan for reference --

The warriors' deep dark secrets -- '[D]uring combat the soldier may become so gripped by fear that most of his thought is directed toward escape. But if he serving among men whom he has known for a long period or whose judgment of him counts for any reason, he still will strive to hide his terror from them ... The majority are unwilling to take extraordinary risks and do not aspire to a hero's role, but they are equally unwilling that they should be considered the least worthy among those present [SLA Marshall, 1947, p. 149]'

Pelters' peer pressure -- After the battle lines would have been drawn, skirmishers will try to disrupt the enemy's formation by getting near them to launch volleys of missiles. 'Many frightened troops [i.e., skirmishers] would have used their weapon in these circumstances out of a desire not to appear weak in front of their friends [the most important reason why men fight in battle, per Marshall (1947) and John Keegan (1976)] ... a large proportion of these would have fired blindly, without even attempting to aim.'

Not much change after 2,000 years -- In comparison, Marshall (1947) in his study of the American infantry's performance in WW2 observed that on average, 'no more than 15% of men ever used their weapon in any given engagement. This figure rose to 25% in the most aggressive companies when under extreme pressure ... [in the Korean War] the rate of fire [rose] to over 50%. However, no more than 20% of troops aimed their weapons.' Furthermore, 'Marshall's research (1947, pp. 48-9) indicated many troops will simply not use their weapons unless told to do so ....'

They need more peyote and/or ayahuasca!

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by aiontay

At the risk of throwing another wrinkle in this discussion, maybe in addition to ethnography we might want to add gender? xxx In a lot of American Indian tribes knives were literally part of a woman's everyday dress, and they weren't just for chores. They were also carried for defense.

What I'll relate below is every bit true, and some people will find this amusing, for sure.

Our mother said that during her teen years (1950s), it was pretty ordinary for women (in the Philippines) to carry in their purse a sewing needle or pin, as an improvised 'weapon'.

The situation being prepared for is this -- in public gatherings or queues in a theater for instance, an occasional pervert (or horny teen) makes use of the tightly packed crowd as an excuse to 'accidentally' touch or bump maidens. And so that pin or needle comes in handy, both as a deterrent and as an actual ethnographic weapon if needed.

They must have read about the porcupine when they were young!

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Migualdiaz, Just tell the immigration guys you're Navajo. I've had Navajo friends be mistaken for Asian by Asians.

Thanks for that tip!

And I just checked out the pics of Navajos and they even look some of the uncles and aunts And I of course enjoyed watching the Navajo "windtalkers" in that Nicholas Cage movie.

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Migueldiaz, I thought they'd actually tested these two theories on the BBC (berserkers: drunk or on magic mushrooms) ...

Fearn, thanks a lot for this info! I'd better search Youtube on whether they have clips of that.

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thanks migueldiaz... my how far have we gotten from shit-knife? At least we're still borderline still on topic with the drugs! ...

Acc. to contemporary brain researchers, a brain's flash of thought is not linear (e.g., like a bowling ball traveling down the lane). Rather, they say it's like a flash of electricity that radiates in all directions in 3D. So I think we are all just being L. da Vinci thinkers here

This is not of course to abuse the kindness and liberality of the mods in allowing some bit of freewheeling discussion

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Still interesting stuff guys, some of it gettin' kinda weird, but as we get into topics like pyschological effects in battle, and here and there the essence of weaponry as applied, the degree of pertinance stubbornly holds ...

Jim, this long post of yours is super. What would we do without you?

I read your post several times, in fact. And John Keegan's The Face of Battle is also one of my favorite books by the way!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for those very kind words Migueldiaz!!! That means a lot. Actually I enjoyed writing on the topic and it helped me realize the importance of what is being discussed here.
The late Professor Keegan was one of the most brilliant writers I have read, and his ability to present true dimension in his work can only be described as magnificent, for lack of better words.

All the best,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for those very kind words Migueldiaz!!! That means a lot. Actually I enjoyed writing on the topic and it helped me realize the importance of what is being discussed here. The late Professor Keegan was one of the most brilliant writers I have read, and his ability to present true dimension in his work can only be described as magnificent, for lack of better words.

The pleasure is really ours. Thanks again, Jim

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The psychological effect of the appearance of many weapons is well established, and this has been discussed many times over the years here, however,the psychological state of the warrior himself however, has not. He, as a virtual living weapon, is essentially the topic here ...

Indeed. The more I think about it, the more it becomes evident that a man's mindset is really his primary weapon.

Give a determined Tausug Moro a toothbrush for his weapon and I'm sure he can still do a lot of damage -- and I don't mean to be facetious in saying that.

As we often hear, the battle is first fought in the mind.

And generals supposedly look into the eyes of their troops on the eve of the battle, to predict whether they will win the battle or not.

So maybe this is where the conditioning of the mind (whether self-induced or via botanicals) comes in. What I mean is that having realized the paramount importance of the mindset, a leader or a warrior strives to reach a certain psychological state, if he is to withstand the rigors and influence the outcome of something important he's about to do (e.g., going into battle).

And the mind is a pretty powerful instrument as we all know. What I excerpted below is somewhat related, as the police officers' account amply illustrates how our brain acts as a weapon in concert with a physical weapon, in extraordinary circumstances.

The account was taken from the bestselling book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, which in turn quoted Into the Kill Zone, by David Klinger, a University of Missouri criminologist --

Well over 90% of police go over their careers without firing a gun. For those 10% who get to shoot it out, their experience turns out to be quite intense, as follows.

First interview, about a police officer and his partner Dan, in which the suspect is in the act of attacking Dan --

He [the criminal] looked up and saw me and said, "Oh, sh**." Not like, "Oh, sh** [I'm scared]" but "Oh, sh** [here's somebody else I gotta kill], real aggressive and mean. Instead of continuing to push the gun at Dan's head, he started to bring it around on me.

This all happened real fast, in milliseconds.

And at the same time, I was bringing my gun up. Dan was still fighting with him and the only thought that came through my mind was, Oh dear God, don't let me hit Dan.

I fired five rounds. My vision changed as I started to shoot.

It went from seeing the whole picture, to seeing just the suspect's head. Everything else just disappeared. I didn't see Dan anymore, I didn't see anything else. All I can see was the suspect's head.

I saw four of my five rounds hit.

The first one hit him in his left eyebrow. It opened up a hole, and the guy's head snapped back and he said, "Oooh!" like "Oooh, you got me." He still continued to turn the gun toward me. And I fired my second round. I saw a red dot right below the base of his left eye. And his head kind of turned sideways.

I fired another round. It hit on the outside of his left eye, and his eye exploded, just ruptured, and came out. My fourth round hit just in front of his left ear. The third round has moved his head even further sideways to me. And when the fourth round hit, I saw a red dot open on the side of his head then close up.

I did not see where my last round went. Then I heard the guy fall backwards, and hit the ground.

Second interview, from another police officer:

When he started towards us, it was almost like in slow motion, and everything went into a tight focus. When he made his move, my whole body just tensed up. I don't remember having any feeling from my chest down. Everything was focused forward to watch and react to my target.

Talk about an adrenaline rush. Everything tightened up, and all my senses were directed forward at the man running at us with a gun. My vision was focused on his torso and the gun. I couldn't tell you what his left hand was doing. I have no idea. I was watching the gun, the gun was coming down in front of his chest area.

And that's when I did my first shots. I didn't hear a thing. Not one thing.

Allen [?] had fired one round, when I shot my first pair but I didn't hear him shoot. He shot two more rounds when I fired the second time but I didn't hear any of those rounds either. We stopped shooting when he hit the floor and slid into me.

Then I was on my feet standing over the guy. I don't even remember pushing myself up. All I know, the next thing I know, I was standing on two feet, looking down on the guy. I don't know how I got there. Whether I pushed down with my hands, or whether I pulled up my knees from underneath. I don't know.

But once I was up, I was hearing things again, because I can hear brass still clinking on the tile floor.

Time has also returned to normal by then, because it has slowed down during the shooting. That started as soon as he started towards us. Even though I knew he was running at us, it looked like he was moving in slow motion.

Damnest thing I ever saw.

Hence, it now appears that "bullet time" in the Matrix movie series has a basis after all.

A Formula One race car driver also supposedly experiences the same time dilation phenomenon.

PS - I just remembered this ... In a Godfather movie (can't recall if it was Part 1 or 2), an assassin successfully killed an enemy boss by employing a good game plan and using the latter's own eyeglasses as weapon. I rest my case