Five Ball Hilt spadroons

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gonzalo,
Good note there! Actually though, in the complete confusion of terminology, these 'spadroons' or whatever you call them actually on occasion it seems I have seen referred to as 'straight sabres' , perhaps in reference to thier manner if use, again the cut and thrust conundrum. I cannot place exactly which places I have seen this, but it was certainly a bit of an anomaly. I know that of course fencing sabres are with straight blade, and the early 20th c. produced swords such as the British M1908, American Patton M1913 and the Spanish M1907 'Puerto Seguro' all with straight blades were often termed 'sabres', obviously contrary to the standard definition, alluding more to issue cavalry swords.
In Arabic, the term sa'if (=sword) can be equally applied to sabres and pallasch type swords.
All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Well said Glen! I think we can all recall the knight vs. ninjas or Samurai or whatever it was debates! which could easily carry on ad infinitum.
Arms and armour terminology as I earlier noted, when trying to examine etymologically, is completely maddening, and typically is fruitless in meaningful discussion of the weapon itself.

My interest in the term spadroon is simply out of extremely long standing curiosity in reviewing the fascinating glossary of such terms, and the 'straight sabre' debate goes with the backsword/broadsword what is a short sword what is a dirk etc. puzzles.

Good suggestion on the Germanic possibility for the 'oon' suffix, which I hope the linguists lurking out there might address.

Neumann is truly an intriguing guy, and I had a wonderful conversation with him at Timonium last March. It is always exciting to see the kind of passion he carries for his field of study, and hearing the stories behind his now venerable reference and its writing.

I'm really enjoying this discussion on these fascinating swords, and hope we can continue learning more on them. Thank you for sharing all these great examples.....and I hope you can get the gremlins outa your computer

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

More on oon (shortening this up, does this make me a moron?):

Can't vouch for it's total correctness, but here's someone's take on where "oon" came from in English (link)

"The Romance languages use an -one or -on suffix to mean a larger or augmented version of the base word; it's often modified to "-oon" in English. In addition to "trombone", other examples are balloon (big ball), bassoon (deep bass), medallion (large medal), galleon (a ship larger than a galley), cannons and canneloni (big canes or hollow tubes — cannoli are little ones), saloon (a large salle, room), and so on. A squadron is a group of soldiers bigger than a squad. (Squad itself is ex-quadra, a square.) The original meaning of cartoon was a poster-sized image, from Italian carta-one, large paper, and a baboon is etymologically a "big baby". [13Nov08] A macaroon is etymologically a large macaroni, although the taste is now somewhat different. [19Jun09] French bouffer meant to swell or puff up; this led to both buffoon (a clown) and the bouffont hair style. Buffer in the sense of "cushion" or "shock absorber" is also from this root. This has been generalized to anything "in the middle" — buffer state, a computer's buffer memory, and so on.
...
Just to aggravate us, French sometimes used the -on or -oon suffix to mean smaller, not larger. A platoon is French peloton, a very little ball (pellet is already a diminutive), and a pontoon seems to have originally been a "small bridge" or maybe "temporary bridge" — Latin pons. The French word for "small cat" is chaton, which has been borrowed into English as kitten."

Not sure it helps, but don't ya love language?

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fearn,
Thats amazing ! Why couldnt they just call these things a straight sword or classical sword or whatever....but noooooo! Somebody had to get fancy and use this lah dee dah term
It really is kinda fun to look into words sometimes though....even though this one kind of makes ya want to........swoon!!!
Sorry.

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Smore. Needless to say, I like eagles. There are a couple of beady eyes in one shot that show new reproductions that are surfacing and aged as old. Some of the other hilts are not strictly beaded but follow a trend of matched elements and even single tribute to a bead. Some are some very French hilts and show bead and or lozenge elements. Still just stylin' as I see it. One reverse p hilt with no beading on a late American flavor spadroon. Also one single example by itself because it looks like one that is moving on the market again. Some of them have become kind of like good friends as they make the rounds.





Cheers

Hotspur; of course, offered for education purposes only and have been harvested all over the net

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Straight sabres can well turn into a ninja vs pirate debate. Looking far enough back to the origin of the term sabre will eventually go back to an eastern European term simply meaning to cut. What cuts better? Straight or curved? Pirates win that debate I believe even the Wiki for sabre acknowledged my insistence that the root of the word simply meant "to cut".

Neumann seems like a long lost uncle to me and is fond of confusing any issue. A straight sabre is simply a straight cutter (see above) and perhaps a tongue in cheek to keep the beer (and/or popcorn) flowing.

I may be missing my mind more than anything else but I believe the bastardization of the latin to use the term of spadroon may well be more Germanic in thought.

Anyway, having started to go through some lost drive files; I wanted to share another gaper with seven balls. It looks to me to be another optioned Ames casting (or not).

Cheers

Hotspur; I'm pretty sure I have more examples of the 7s as well

Are you saying that the term ´szabla´does not designate a historical type of weapon, but anything that cuts? ...I don´t believe so. And if this term designates specifically a curved sword of certain type, I don´t understand why in english you say there is confussion of terms, since this term passed to several languajes to designate specifically the same type of curved weapon. Wouldn´t it be the confussion elsewere? But I am not questioning anything or discussing anything, just asking to the experts what is the meaning of ´sabre´in english. The sword Puerto Seguro is not a ´sabre´ in spanish, but a sword, since it has a straight blade, and it is called, not very correctly, éspada-sable´(sword-sabre), because it has a straight blade, but the mountings or garnments in the style of a sabre. The correct term for this kind of sword is ´espada de montar´, meaning a mounting or cavalry sword.

It is correct in arab to call ´saif´all those weapons, since ´saif´mens only generically a sword. It is only an occidental cause of confussion, since arbitrarily occidental collectors called ´saif´only to a certain type of sword. Knowing swords in one thing. Knowing the language, is another. I don´t think we can call the viking swords a ´sabre´, just becauser they ´cut´.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fearn

The Romance languages use an -one or -on suffix to mean a larger or augmented version of the base word; it's often modified to "-oon" in English. In addition to "trombone", other examples are balloon (big ball), bassoon (deep bass), medallion (large medal), galleon (a ship larger than a galley), cannons and canneloni (big canes or hollow tubes — cannoli are little ones), saloon (a large salle, room), and so on. A squadron is a group of soldiers bigger than a squad. (Squad itself is ex-quadra, a square.) The original meaning of cartoon was a poster-sized image, from Italian carta-one, large paper, and a baboon is etymologically a "big baby". [13Nov08] A macaroon is etymologically a large macaroni, although the taste is now somewhat different. [19Jun09] French bouffer meant to swell or puff up; this led to both buffoon (a clown) and the bouffont hair style. Buffer in the sense of "cushion" or "shock absorber" is also from this root. This has been generalized to anything "in the middle" — buffer state, a computer's buffer memory, and so on.
...
Just to aggravate us, French sometimes used the -on or -oon suffix to mean smaller, not larger. A platoon is French peloton, a very little ball (pellet is already a diminutive), and a pontoon seems to have originally been a "small bridge" or maybe "temporary bridge" — Latin pons. The French word for "small cat" is chaton, which has been borrowed into English as kitten."

Not sure it helps, but don't ya love language?

Best,

F

Fearn, you are right, the romance languajes, have this characteristics. But ´peloton´in spanish means big ball, and the word ´pelota´is not french. Pellet is not a romance word, but an alglosaxon word taken by several languajes. Ponton is not the bridge, but the name of certain type of elements designed to make a floating bridge once they are ensambled. The result is called a pontoon bridge or a bridge made of pontoons. But chaton is alright a small cat or a cat´s puppet. Without any reference or proof, I don´t see a ´germanic´presence in the making of the word ´spadroon´, since it seems it has no resemblance in any way with this language, which I know a little.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Hotspur]

Click Me You Know You Want To

[fearn]

Come on Hotspur!

Anyway, Gonzalo, Bridge in French is "pont" so I think that's a proper derivation for pontoon (little bridge). As for that ESPADroon... what do you think? Is it a little sword, a big sword, or a frenchified spanish sword?

Frank

[Hotspur]

Hi Frank,

Just where should we go? I am not intending to debate the reason Polish swords were termed such. It is just an old tired discussion to me. Nor am I excusing Neumann and others regarding straight sabres. It is simply information I would be repeating myself again and again, hence leaving it as a link.

Cheers

Hotspur; I am truly not one to worry about it a great deal

[fearn]

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

[fernando]

Hi Fearn and Gonzalo,

As already resumed in post # 3:
Spadroon: Obs. exc. Hist.1798 (ad. Genevan dialect espadron,= french espadon) A sword much lighter than a broadsword, and made both to cut and thrust.
(The Oxford Universal Dictionary)

Yes, Fearn, it is a fact that the augmentative suffix on, one or ão (portuguese), may also have a diminutive sense. This exception however sometimes is not correlative between latinic languages. Chaton, in portuguese gatão, is not often used, but does have the sense of large cat.

Ah, Gonzalo, pelota would very a popular term in spanish but is indeed a fench word (pelote), inherited from the provençal (pelota).

Pontoon, ponton, pontão is fact a bridge making element, but is also a little bridge, this being the aception mostly used in Portugal/portuguese.

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

OK, I think I have taxed my limited ability to comprehend linguistics beyond the limit Regardless of whatever reasons there have been for calling a sword one thing or another, and whether it falls correctly into the perameters of the languages noted, it sort of is what it is.

We know the 'katar' daggers of India were inadvertantly labeled such in an error of early arms writers, and should be called 'jemadhar'. But after the term has become formly emplaced in arms literature for over a century, it seems moot to try to correct what is colloquially established.

This discussion of the term spadroon has been enlightening and fascinating, but I'm all for learning more on the forms of these 'swords' and the variations of examples from England, to the U.S. and France.
Glen, BTW, thank you for the fantastic 'harvesting' !! and showing all the great examples.

I think it would be a great idea for a thread, or perhaps number of threads, to discuss for example a glossary of sword terms, with each example having some of the etymology and colloquial possibilities. I know there are many terms with considerable debate that has ensued through the years, for example pas' d' ane ; fuller/ channel/ blood gutter etc. .
Not here, but on another thread. I am incredibly impressed with the knowledge on linguistics and etymology seen here!!! so it would seem we are well versed enough to archive a great thread on these.

Meanwhile, back to the 'spadroons' (aka straight blade swords).


All very best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by fearn

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno


Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fearn

Sorry, I don't click on links that say "Click on me." Call it paranoia.

Goes to Google results for :

' szabla word origin to cut '

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Anyway, the number of balls relating Masonic association I find as false pursuit as absolutes regarding them as significant. One could apply such articles as this regarding the magic square and saying "See?See? It contains numbers of that chart" without understanding the implied numerology.
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...compasses.html

Cheers

Glen C. aka Hotspur; one could as easily say every bit of military iconography worldwide was meant to convey Masonic implications

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hah, I can understand that from the perspective as a complete stranger but I hope all true arms collectors and scholars can share in trust. My browser shows my links when I mouse over such links. It is just a search result from Google for szabla word origin and meanings. To me, a more cheery type of post than "Hey dimwit, run a Google search for szabla" That process exactly was my realization some years ago in the midst of a thread's death throes regarding the meaning of the word sabre. Unresolved in the end? I dunno


Cheers

Hotspur; I will admit to once linking to a Johhny Cash mariachi intro wav file when regarding Mexican blades

Well noted Glen! Another thread in 'death throes' with the discussion of the meaning of the word sabre? What a shock! LOL! I wish I could count the number of such discussions over the years, and the inevitably unresolved muddle that was typically left. ....also try the 'origins' of the sabre for really hot debates.

I somewhat understand the note by Frank on links, the daily barrage of spam around has truly gotten people paranoid.....just a knee jerk thing. However the staff here work incredibly hard at keeping this flak under control....and the right level of kevlar around the forum. ..old habits die hard though.

It really is amazing some stuff that comes up in searches ......the Wiki link was interesting, and I did click on it, though admit I felt a little of the same apprehension as it is against my grain....I only did it cuz I know you Glen
Maybe a few words on what the link is would be gooder trying to keep in line with the linguistics theme.

All the best,
Jim

P.S. Loved the Mariachi analogy in the search on Mexican blades....gotta admit it is perfectly placed theme music!! But then there was my experience with hard rock, stiff drink and a tulwar.....uh, took out a ceiling fan..oops.

[fearn]

Hi Hotspur and Jim,

As I said, it's paranoia, not necessarily rational. Of course, one could consider that posting a description of the link is a politeness to the reader, who gets to decide whether it's worthwhile following the link or not.

As for debating the origin of saber...well, we could debate whether the short ones are knives or swords, just to make the argument really messy.


Best,

F

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Glen,

While I agree with avoiding the latest fashion of looking for Masonic conspiracies every where, I have learned to listen very carefully to Jim's hunches. On Mark Cloke's site ( http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php ) he has a PDF of John Hamilton's article Swords of the Masonic Orders . There does appear to be a number of five and seven ball hilts associated with the Masons.

Nothing conclusive but, where there is smoke there often is fire.

All the Best
Jeff

Thanks for the link, I am downloading now (dial-up). I admire researchers a good bit, yet tend to be quite contentious regarding speculations and hunches. I know I pursue my own a good bit of the time. Another had prompted me regarding some other Ames information and ended up looking at the perspective a good way back in the Ames family history. I will read it though, as something that will be on my bookshelf. Another article from MAA cued some more though about Ames in particular and as there are two seven ball examples I blame on Ames castings (or his supplier) Hamilton's notes are something I should be reviewing (along with adding his Ames book at some point). The thing is though that he seems a bit oblivious about the family history (in print anyway). Some of the Ames letters online are fascinating. Agreeably, a proponderance of American officers were MAsons, or affiliated with a good many participating with anumber of fraternities. I look forward to reading the article.

Wait, wait wait, it is about a twenty minute download for me but I will check it out.

Cheers

Hotspur; still twenty minutes, yarrrrrr

[Hotspur]

Ok Jeff, file duly noted.

First and correct me if I am wrong, there is a single cushion pommel seven beaded sword that happens to have Masonic iconography. We'll come back to that and perhaps merge or move it to a thread I initiated today regarding military swords used in fraternal society.

Secondly and while freely admiting to not being involved in Free Masonry, the article is thirty years old. While not dismissing such work, I have at times spent a good bit of browsing in the past decade reading about it. Here is a good site. Especially so for iconography. that is a nice chart in the Hamilton article though, a nice job with that.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masoni...ns_america.htm

Let me see if I can find some more I plumbed the depths and angles of such history.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

I can just about paraphrase the Hamilton article historical notes from the bookshelf I have there, simply in regarding notes about the Templars, Free Masons and development of fraternties both in England and somewhat worldwide (including American growth). South Carolina history is another interesting portal for such research.

Another older and goody from my bookmarks regarding guilds, craft and economic growth.
http://www.takver.com/history/benefit/ctormys.htm

Getting back to beaded swords, I think not as associative as that single article example.

I do find the Hamilton artice quite useful to me in some aspects but not so much regarding what amounts to fraternal presentation swords. While interesting to in a different association of/to fraternities, what I find specifically of interest are some fairly plain swords that incorporate private purchase requests. Presentation swords are yet another category and as we all may agree that many military officers have been or are Free Masons, in the end, it's just a sword. I do not see that the number of beads are specifically engineered for Free Masons or even officer grades.

My feeling is that a continued discussion regarding fraternal swords, while quite parallel in this thread's interest, is a sidebar that might be better suited in a seperate thread than spadrone examples. Either that or I'm quite agreeable to attaching a mess o pictures of Shriners sabres, a dandy 1796 lc lodge sword and an exceptional British yeoman cavalry sabre with some really neat Scottish rite stuff engraved and gilded. Of those three I listed, it is just the Shriners sabres I would specifically assign to only fraternity. Some examples have been out there listed at dealers for some years (as of a few days ago, including a dandy skull and bones hilt for really short money.

Cheers

Hotspur; I like this spadroon a lot. Actually a couple to share. Oh yes, how about the diamonds in the counterguards?

[Jeff D]

Hi Glen,

You are absolutely correct this article is hardly convincing that there is a definite link between the beads and the Masons. However it is definite that the hilt type was used on at least one occasion. I know absolutely nothing of the Mason organization, other then it liked secret symbols (even this I don't know for sure). Rather than show multiple examples of Known Mason swords with associated known symbols on them, do you have any examples of these known symbols on working military pieces? was it ever allowed? I don't mean added later to retired blades as Hamilton has cited.

All the Best
Jeff

[Hotspur]

Hi Jeff, I'll add some images in the other thread I began. I panicked in thinking I had lost that one on a drive. I hesitate to just link some dealer offerings still listed but that one yeoman cavalry sword sold some time ago.

Cheers

Hotppur; oddly. it was the Odd Fellows that first drew my curiousities

[Rick]

Please don't link to any items currently for sale .

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, thank you so much for the kind words, and especially for the confidence in the observations and thoughts I often express. That really means a lot .

Glen, thank you for your open minded approach in examining and reopening thoughts open for consideration in this topic.

I have often discovered that the subject of symbolism in motif and decoration on swords is typically met with considerable difference of opinion and responses from indifference and skepticism to even outright hostility in thankfully few cases.

It has been many years since I first considered the possibility of Masonic symbolism in these swords, and as I recall, even in communication with Brian Robson, he discounted the idea, claiming that the five ball motif was likely an aesthetic selection.
In my research I found the 1963 article by W.E.May in the Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, and while he did not express the Masonic idea, he was intrigued by the motif, and noted that he hoped further research would ensue.
In years to follow, I began studying markings on blades, and discovered the talismanic and cabbalistic motif profoundly occurring on British and European military blades. It seems that the 18th century was highly charged with secret societies, fraternal groups, and occultism, which had carried the concept of superstition and talismanic properties imbued in weapons from the earlier 'Passau Art'.
Among the societies originating in the early 18th century was of course the Freemasons, which had membership not only in England and Scotland, but in France. This brotherhood had ties much deeper than politics or loyalty to a crown, and was nearly quintessant in its ancient symbolism and fealty.
In a time wrought with occultism, elitism in fashion and culture, and the search for cultural superiority, the gentry often sought romanticized gallantry in military appontment of rank.

As I have mentioned, the spadroon was introduced as a corresponding military counterpart to the gentlemans smallsword, and neoclassic fashion was clearly seen in the stylish hilt and classic style pommel. My mention of the use of the term 'spadroon' was simply to illustrate the Italian fencing term which might have alluded to the familiarity of these officers of gentry origins and such training. That they would have quite likely been members of Masonic lodges is also most likely, and the thought of the numeric five representing such allusion seems to me quite plausible.

I recently watched a documentary concerning Masonic symbolism and the possibilities associated with the symbolism found on the dollar bill. While certainly much of the material is quite contestible, there are a number of elements that are not only plausible, but compelling. Prior to the American Revolution, the forefathers of the country were not only British subjects, but many, including George Washington and more, were Masons. The French, who were profoundly allied in the Revolution, were also in many cases, of Masonic lodges.
It is interesting that this numeric ball motif found its way across the English Channel to France, as a model for a sword pattern, when France seldom was a follower in adopting weapon forms. It is further interesting that the pattern seems to have followed to the United States, in a time when strife between the U.S. and England remained in place despite strained diplomatic ties.
Perhaps more the result of fraternal solidarity ?

This is pretty much my presentation of my case, and whether or not it can be proven, I still think it is worthy of consideration. I very much believe that Masonic symbolism has long existed subtly in military tradition, and this, and other instances deserve further research.

All best regards,
Jim

[Hotspur]

Hi Jim,

What I am unclear on entirely but don't ascribe to is that beaded hilts (of any number) originated in England. What I see in terms of browsing and cataloging these, along with the more recent fascination of seven vs five, or three vs one; it just doesn't add up to me as Masonic influence. the grandaddy five ball examples of those that I log looks more in line with continental origin. Albeit, someone else I have prodded mentions it as probably later than my impressions of it but does agree it is not English in its evolution.

Mark of Old Swords has an immense amount of data for Birmingham and had offered it on dvd but I have failed to follow up with him due to other things going on. if the evolution and connotation of the meaning evolved in England, comparisons of cutlers on either side would perhaps settle my thought of European influences and the evolution of beading.

A couple of more attachments here from some old auction pages referencing that naval counterguard on a french anglais pattern.

I did watch the very same documentary regarding Washington, the stars and the government's icons. Remarkably though is that Washington became a mason during the French and Indian War (from my understanding of his biographies) and that it was not a case of nepotism (of which some has been cause to approach me about for personal references).

My late younger brother (rip) was quite enthralled with the math, symbology, history of Free Masonry from the 80s to 1994 and desputed my truth to his last breath because he was determined I was in the order (which I'm not). Oldest son to oldest son stuff. I'm also going to attach a symbol for the second son and South Carolina

Cheers

Hotspur; all intresting stuff, that is true

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Glen,
Im really glad you started the other thread on fraternal swords and the military, and we've got great discussion now on both fronts. Thank you.

I would really like to know of earlier use of the numeric ball motif on another type of hilt in earlier times and where. I really cant think of anything offhand, and the first example of the five ball has always been to me the British five ball.
W.E. May ("The Five Ball Type of Sword Hilt", Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, Vol. IV, #9,1963, pp.153-56) notes, "...as far as I have been able to ascertain, swords with the five ball type of hilt came into use in the Royal Navy shortly before the year 1790, as an alternative to two or three other types".
He notes further that the Army also had this type hilt, but he was unclear on whose came first.
It should be noted that Robson's "Swords of the British Army" describing the M1786 Infantry officers spadroon with five ball hilt, did not come out until 1975.

In " Naval Swords" by P.G.W. Annis ( May's co-author in the comprehensive 2 volume "Swords for Sea Service", 1970) also published in 1970, Annis states;
"...the combination of a beaded guard with a grip shaped to the hand may be considered a relatively late feature", as he is describing naval swords at the end of the 18th century.

Mark Cloke is a great researcher who goes into fantastic detail in his studies on weapons, particularly regulation patterns and his work I consider a valuable resource, and I would very much like to know if he has more detail on this topic.

I regret the loss of your brother, who must have been a wonderfully inquisitive and fascinating fellow, and you both must have had great conversations with the knowledge and interest you have in history.

As always, terrific illustrations you post!! and what a great Federal gorget!

All the best,
Jim

[Jeff D]

Hi Jim and Glen,

I am sure you are aware of this quote from John Wilkinson Latham's British Military Swords 1966 on Page 15.

"King George III's order of 3 April 1786 was that the Infantry were to have a strong cut-and-thrust sword 32 in. long and 1 in. wide at the shoulder, the hilt to be of steel, gilt or silver, according to the buttons of the uniform. Although there are no further descriptions of the sword, nor can any illustration specifications be found, the author feels certain that the sword illustrated at Plate 18 is in fact this one."

I don't know if this goes for or against the Masonic connection, or even if this is still considered correct. However it does place the five ball in the infantry by 1786 according to Mr Wilkinson Latham.

All the Best
Jeff
Plate 18

[Jeff D]

If Mr Wilkinson Latham is correct here is +1 for the Masonic connection (well sort of ) http://www.rurallodge.com/2NEWS/feat...irstRoyal.html

All the Best
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much Jeff, I knew of the Robson reference to the 1786 Infantry sword, but its been years since I've looked at the 1966 John Wilkinson-Latham reference (another of my very first volumes!!). I appreciate hearing that reference as well, and this does support the appearance of these five ball hilts around that time.
The Masonic theory for this motif is of course based primarily on the cultural climate of the times and the observations noted and discussed. While there is the suggestion that this type of numeric groupings of beads/balls on hilts precedes these examples, especially in Continental countries, then the theory of course would go 'back to the drawing board'.

I would sincerely appreciate anyone having knowledge or examples of any sort of multiple ball motif of this type from earlier swords and other countries letting us know.

I think I'll do some further checking into smallsword motif.

All the best,
Jim