Is this Indo-Persian?

ariel · 25th May 2009, 11:07 PM

IMHO, there is not a trace of Caucasian influence: purely Arabian.
The blade with 3 narrow and very "mechanical" fullers looks , if anything, trade Syrian or N. African ( the worst, Heavens forbid, is a modern Georgian arts and crafts design). The silverwork is NOT Caucasian at all. The handle of Georgian swords widens toward crossguard, and Khevsurian swords have flat brass ( or, if expensive, silver) rings, just like the scabbard.
Look here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10110
My guess, the fittings were reassembled: the middle section of the scabbard covering is a primitive replacement. At that time, the adjacent suspension plates were put upside down.

ALEX · 25th May 2009, 11:24 PM

Ariel put it quite nicely, and accurately. This sword screams reassembly, and fairly recent. Even though it resembles a legit Arab sword form - so many components are out of match, and of low quality. It's hard to judge by pictures, but in my opinion it has been done by an amateur.

broadaxe · 25th May 2009, 11:52 PM

I'm relatively new in this field but have begun most recently to study Bedouin sabers. Re-fitting swords and scabbards was quite common. I've handeled several swords lately, some of them were untouched for dozens of years and they looked similar, meaning re-fitted during their working time.
Suspencion could have been edge down or edge up, no matter where the rings are.
Check this link, showing the Pope's visit to Israel with Kawas - ceremonial muslem body guards - that can bee seen during the first seconds, carrying swords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Psm...eature=related

Take also a look at this photo, from Beth-Lehem, 1934:

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2009, 12:24 AM

Excellent input Broadaxe, I see what you mean on the carrying rings...excellent photo too! Thank you so much. That does put things back to the Arabian sphere. While a rough sabre, it is the type used by Bedouins well into the 1930's.

Thank you again for your response Teodor.

TVV · 26th May 2009, 12:47 AM

Jim,

Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century.
I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir.
Rehards,
Teodor

ariel · 26th May 2009, 03:40 AM

As per photo, the "edge-up" swords have suspension rings on both sides: to hang them from the baldric. The one under discussion has only one set of rings, i.e. to suspend it from the belt. Had it been designed in Arabia, it would have had two sets.

Jim McDougall · 26th May 2009, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Jim,

Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century.
I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir.
Rehards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,
Argumentative never crossed my mind, and your suggestion was well placed. I was trying to think of how the very clear Arabian characteristics might be associated with what I perceived as perhaps Georgian possibilities. In both of these spheres, swords were key weapons well into the 20th century, and crudely refurbished examples were common as tribesmen sought to keep thier weapons serviceable.
I think this is the charm of these relatively modern examples that were made for use as well as traditional wear , and it is often difficult to discern whether these assembled examples were put together for authentic purpose or for sale.
Whatever the case, I wanted to thank you for your kind response and addressing me personally, very much appreciated.

All the very best,
Jim

Iliad · 26th May 2009, 10:18 AM

Hi guys, thanks heaps for the learned discussion. I am always amazed at how much you can deduce just from looking at photos!
I like to attach a label to each of my pieces, for I D purposes, but how do I label this one in 5 words!!!!

I paid about 250 US Dollars for it, so didn't outlay too much. I've had my money's worth in enjoying the discussion!
Brian

25th May 2009, 11:24 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel put it quite nicely, and accurately. This sword screams reassembly, and fairly recent. Even though it resembles a legit Arab sword form - so many components are out of match, and of low quality. It's hard to judge by pictures, but in my opinion it has been done by an amateur. Last edited by ALEX; 25th May 2009 at 11:36 PM.

25th May 2009, 11:52 PM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	I'm relatively new in this field but have begun most recently to study Bedouin sabers. Re-fitting swords and scabbards was quite common. I've handeled several swords lately, some of them were untouched for dozens of years and they looked similar, meaning re-fitted during their working time. Suspencion could have been edge down or edge up, no matter where the rings are. Check this link, showing the Pope's visit to Israel with Kawas - ceremonial muslem body guards - that can bee seen during the first seconds, carrying swords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Psm...eature=related Take also a look at this photo, from Beth-Lehem, 1934: Attached Images

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25th May 2009, 11:07 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	IMHO, there is not a trace of Caucasian influence: purely Arabian. The blade with 3 narrow and very "mechanical" fullers looks , if anything, trade Syrian or N. African ( the worst, Heavens forbid, is a modern Georgian arts and crafts design). The silverwork is NOT Caucasian at all. The handle of Georgian swords widens toward crossguard, and Khevsurian swords have flat brass ( or, if expensive, silver) rings, just like the scabbard. Look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10110 My guess, the fittings were reassembled: the middle section of the scabbard covering is a primitive replacement. At that time, the adjacent suspension plates were put upside down.

26th May 2009, 12:24 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Excellent input Broadaxe, I see what you mean on the carrying rings...excellent photo too! Thank you so much. That does put things back to the Arabian sphere. While a rough sabre, it is the type used by Bedouins well into the 1930's. Thank you again for your response Teodor.

26th May 2009, 12:47 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jim, Thank you, I was not trying to be argumentative, and as I wrote, I completely missed the suspension before Ariel and you pointed it out. I agree that something did not feel quite right, especially in the crudeness of the workmanship, and I am with Ariel and Alex in dating this sword to the 20th century, perhaps even the second half of last century. I still think it is a nice sword, even if if the scabbard and hilt were put together more recently. Hopefully it was made a few decades ago for local ceremonial use, and not as something to be sold as a souvenir. Rehards, Teodor

26th May 2009, 03:40 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per photo, the "edge-up" swords have suspension rings on both sides: to hang them from the baldric. The one under discussion has only one set of rings, i.e. to suspend it from the belt. Had it been designed in Arabia, it would have had two sets.

26th May 2009, 10:18 AM	#8
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Hi guys, thanks heaps for the learned discussion. I am always amazed at how much you can deduce just from looking at photos! I like to attach a label to each of my pieces, for I D purposes, but how do I label this one in 5 words!!!! I paid about 250 US Dollars for it, so didn't outlay too much. I've had my money's worth in enjoying the discussion! Brian