Help pls. on 15th-17th C. cutlass & scimitar

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Mmmm, Fer...I don´t believe the arabs of the conquest used any curved sword, but very late on the 15th Century ...

I wonder if there is solid evidence of that, as i have been reading otherwise; as if all three sword types, straight, alfanje and scimitar have shown up at the reconquest period.
Not that all such sources can be considered reliable, but some serious guy wrote that:
... in the combats following the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin.
In a context that:
... the type of swords used by the folks of the center and northern Peninsula, inherited from Roman civilization, of vertical disposition, short and solid, but lacking artistic attire, ended up being influenced by the aptitude and elegance of Muslim swords, at least in the upper parts (hilts...) by the hands of Mossarabs; this giving logic to specimens appeared by mid IX century, in Spain, Portugal and the Fench Midi, which development in European territory can not be denied.

Fernando

The pictures attached are not necessarily reliable.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Miguel, nicely done on the excellent work by Mr.Clements, those groupings of profiles really help in the discussion and looking at the development annd comparisons of types. Thank you for posting them for those of us who do not have this reference at hand.

Also, well placed digression to the Philippine versions of these, as it is always to see the widespread diffusion of many European influences into other cultures, and if none directly exists, the similarity regardless.

Norman....(thinking of the 'Crocodile Dundee' cliche').....
..now THATS a cleaver!
and thank you for those dussacks, granddaddies of my favorite, the Scottish basket hilt.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Miguel, nicely done on the excellent work by Mr.Clements, those groupings of profiles really help in the discussion and looking at the development annd comparisons of types. Thank you for posting them for those of us who do not have this reference at hand.

Also, well placed digression to the Philippine versions of these, as it is always to see the widespread diffusion of many European influences into other cultures, and if none directly exists, the similarity regardless.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the comments!

The European influence on Asian blades is indeed one big factor. And hundreds of years even before Magellan and crew landed in southeast Asia (the present day Phils., Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.), Portuguese, Italian, and other European explorers and traders had already been frequenting Asia as we all know.

And am sure it was a two-way street -- Asian craft for sure was influencing European blade designs as well.

Going back to Spanish conquistador weapons, we see the illustrations below from one of Osprey's conquistador titles, for commentary as usual:

[migueldiaz]

Would appreciate more help and comments, please!

[And by the way, thanks again to Gonzalo for referring me the LINK from where the book Spanish Arms & Armour, which is now in the public domain, can be downloaded (a 45 mb download).]

So I found in the book this image of a 16th century cutlass (the rightmost sword). May I inquire from anybody please as to the cutlass' country of origin, as well as any other info about the same?

Thanks in advance!

[Gonzalo G]

Looks italian, and I wouldn´t call it a "cutlass".

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the comments!

The European influence on Asian blades is indeed one big factor. And hundreds of years even before Magellan and crew landed in southeast Asia (the present day Phils., Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.), Portuguese, Italian, and other European explorers and traders had already been frequenting Asia as we all know.

And am sure it was a two-way street -- Asian craft for sure was influencing European blade designs as well.

Going back to Spanish conquistador weapons, we see the illustrations below from one of Osprey's conquistador titles, for commentary as usual:

Well, Augustus (Cesar Octavius) sent an embassy to the chinese court through Southeast Asia. The relations are not ignored. The mutual influences are still to be established based on scientific grounds.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Looks italian, and I wouldn´t call it a "cutlass".

Thanks for the comment!

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Well, Augustus (Cesar Octavius) sent an embassy to the chinese court through Southeast Asia. The relations are not ignored. The mutual influences are still to be established based on scientific grounds.

Don't know about that one in particular, but thanks for the info.

Other explorers who for sure were "agents" of the phenomenon of the West influencing the East (and vice versa) would be Marco Polo (1254-1324) and Ibn Battuta (1305-1377). The latter is supposed to have even reached the Philippines.

And then there's the Italian Niccolò de' Conti (1395–1469) and Ludovico di Varthema who both reached what is now present day Malaysia and Indonesia.

Thus I think it would be safe to assume that Asia had been influencing Europe (and vice versa) even way back then. The only thing that would be hard to pinpoint would be the magnitude of each one's influence over the other.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wonder if there is solid evidence of that, as i have been reading otherwise; as if all three sword types, straight, alfanje and scimitar have shown up at the reconquest period.
Not that all such sources can be considered reliable, but some serious guy wrote that:
... in the combats following the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin.
In a context that:

Yes, Fer, there is much evidence that the islamic armies used straight swords easily until at least the 13th Century, if not latter. The nasrid caliph Boabdil used a straight sword. For easyness to find, just look into the books from David Nicolle. Which is your source? I don´t have much confidence in literary sources. They must be revised carefully. Remember that Cervantes did not fought the arabs in Spain, but the foreign turks on the sea, and in that time the knowledge of turkish weapons was already introduced in Spain. But you are not speaking of Cervantes, so, which is your source?
I also think that the most inmediate influence over the christian cavalry swords were not the roman swords, but the visigotic. Even the late roman cavalry sword, the spatha, is in great debt to the sword of the germanic peoples.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Jim, I don´t see any european influence there. Maybe even the machete is the result of the influence of the indonesian-phlippine over occidental weapons, isn´t it? At least, I can trace the ancestry of the machete among this eastern patterns, and not in the european arsenal. I don´t deny the mutual influences, but they are not something as the result of the "civilizing influence of Europe over the world." Philippines and Indonesia were first influenced by the indian and islamic cultures, but they never lost their local cultural identities.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Which is your source? I don´t have much confidence in literary sources. They must be revised carefully ... But you are not speaking of Cervantes, so, which is your source? ...

Well Gonzalo, what can i say ? The guy is certainly more an intelectual than an arms technician; but he appears to have some lights in arms evolution.
His name is Alfredo Guimarães (1882-1958); Museum Director, member of the Academy of Fine Arts.
In the first part of the book prologue, he says:
The peninsular subsoil, rich in mineral species like silver, copper, tin and iron, was celebrated by the antiquity geologists and, upon it, Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians , Romans, Visigoths, Persians and Arabs developed their industrial activity, until the politic religious unification which crystallized, in the occident, the triumphs of the reconquest.
Giving the Phoenicians a notable activity in the works of argent and copper matters, exercised above all in the peninsular coast, and to the Visigoths a certain personality in the works of goldsmithery and numismatic, in reality, on what concerns the construction of defence weapons conceived in terms of art, we only possess notice of Roman and Persian-Arabic production, occidental, being in this way able to establish, under influence of the two peoples, the path that drives us in this matter, until the beginning of our national life.
Roman and Arabic armoury are however two kinds of under the artistic point of view, determine, in the form as in the technique, the domain of two civilizations fundamentally heterogeneous. One being Latin and the other Oriental, marking therefore poles opposed in character and development of their respective workshops, Roman civilization left us a sword model of vertical disposition, short and solid, but absent of artistic attires, whereas, under designation of peoples to which decorative arts were always an indispensable attraction, Oriental civilization impregnated us with inflexed armoury, damascened and sometimes enamelled, under active effect of artistic faculties. Therefore, in the military combats that took place after the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the re curved models of their country of origin. The Reconquest fights intensified and submitted to Christian power the Persians and Arabs of the center and north of the Iberian peninsula, there can be no doubt that Muslim arts soon exercised certain influence spirit is western armoury and is by influx of the same that, in Mozarab artistic activity, of vertical sword, which was supported, as said before, in the Roman model, suffering t5he effects – at least in the superior part of the pieces – of the aptitude and elegance of the artists of neo-christian workshops. From where logically, the specimens appeared by mid IX century, in Spain, Portugal and the French Midi, and which development in European territory can not be denied.
Then the author weaves considerations on the evolution of the sword, mainly on their artistic side, which i roughly sinthetize here:
Figure 1. The so called Frank sword, on which setup we can still see a a Roman architectural trace, but also exhibiting Mossarab innovations, in the pommel, grip and guard.
Figure 2. The shape of the XI, XII and XIII centuries, to which we owe a lot.
Figure 3. The so called Gineta.
Figure 4. The evolution of “Passot” and “Gavilanes” (quillons).
Figure 5. The so called fallen cross sword.
Figure 6. The Carlos V (Spain) “Espadão” (large sword), dedicated to chiefs of the Lansquenets.
Figure 7. Another Espadão, with various innovations like, for the hand protection, thick flocks of silk, which also served as decoration.
Figure 8. The Mandoble (two handed), of dimension prolongated to two and half meters, with a blade of Arab artistic expression (XV century).
Figure 9. A sword of highly decorative values, XVI century.
Figure 10 and 11. Lace swords, for Aristrocacy dressing, but ending up being used for combat in Africa, Asia, America and Oceania.
Figure 12. The Lighthouse or Eslavona sword, particularly esteemed in Italy and Spain, and here, in a special manner in Cataluñia and Valencia.
Figure 13,14 and 15. The Cazoleta, Concha (shell) and Taza (cup) swords; provenient from Spain, mainly after the usurpation period (Filipes), with the most perfect and complete influences of Oriental art.
Figure 16. The sword of King Dom joão I, Mestre de Aviz (XIV century).
Figure 17. The sword of Nuno Alvares Pereira (the hero of Aljubarrota – XIV century).
So sorry if i went much off topic; hoping some of this material has the minimum interest.
Fernando

.

[katana]

Hi Fernando ,
is it me, or is figure 1, a Model 1831 French Infantry Short Sword

Regards David

[fernando]

Hi David,

Originally Posted by katana

... is it me, or is figure 1, a Model 1831 French Infantry Short Sword ...

I understand one instinctively thinks so.
But maybe the idea is to consider that the French glaive is inspired on the IX century Frank sword ... says my innocent self .
Remember the Gladius Hispaniensis and all that?
The grip of this sword could be in ivory, bone or wood, sometimes damascened; the blade, enlarging in its width, still preserves the pointed form of the Romanized exemplars.
Fernando

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Then the author weaves considerations on the evolution of the sword, mainly on their artistic side, which i roughly sinthetize here: ...

Hi Fernando,

Many thanks for continuously sharing to us your knowledge and your materials on the subject! All I can say is "super!"

This sure puts the swords we are talking about in a much much better perspective.

Best wishes and thanks again,

Lorenz