19th century fencing foils

[katana]

Hi William,
thank you very much for your help Using a magnifying glass mounted on a stand I was able to get a much better picture It would be great if you could find any information on the mark.

Kind regards David

[broadaxe]

Hi David/katana. Please forgive my habit of being sometimes over-critisize, I can't help it as research is part of my daily wages.
If you check my photos from the fencing collection you will find at least one pair of sharp duelling foils - especially those with colonial-looking cup hilts, so I don't have problems with the thought that your foil was indeed for duelling.
Great innovative "macro shots" ! As I can see now there is a small recess between the guard and the shoulders, your foil may bee missing a thick stiff leather washer that used to cover the entire 8 figure guard, thus closing the large holes and protecting the hand.

[William V.]

good idea using the magnifying glass
I've checked the information I have gathered so far and must admit that I've never came across that kind of marking.
Quite interesting is the fact that the marking is on the "shoulder" of the blade and not on the side, because normally blades were marked there.
Judging by the crown, I would guess the blade was forged in England perhaps first half of the 19th century. The strange grip and the observations made by broadaxe seem to indicate that the weapon was made up at a later point in time using (at least) an older blade (perhaps even the guard).
Do you mind posting pictures of the pommel? This might show if the blade is threaded (which can be another indicator for the forging time).


William

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe,
thank you ...yes I did notice one of the labels stating 'paire epees du duel ' but because of the cup hilt, longer handle etc. I did not think it was necessarily applicable to mine. I had wondered whether Duelling rapiers may be partly catergorised by the cup hilt etc ( mentioned above ) ...now I know that it is not necessarily so.

Hi William,
thank you for your time in trying to ID the blade marks...very kind of you . There is very little regarding fencing during the 18th C / 19th C on the web, in English anyway. I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling' Hi Jim ) using French and or German ... (I can see Babelfish getting a lot of use soon )

The tang of the blade appears to be 'peened' over......whether the pommel is threaded and the tang peened to secure it (prevent it turning) is unclear. What is clear is the fact that pommel and tang were 'mated' sometime ago .All the fittings are nice and tight so it is impossible to gain any more information.....without damage that is The steel in the 'pommel' picture is in fact quite dark with stablised rust, lighting gives the appearance of newer metal.

Kind Regards David
.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by katana

... I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling' Hi Jim)...

Hey ... what about paying some royalties for that ?

Fernando

[William V.]

everything to keep me occupied from working is welcomed

The pommel looks like the blade is not threaded. This would indicate that the weapon is authentic. So we must get back to Broadaxe' first guess about it being a private ordered weapon. Perhaps the personal whims of a fencer were taken into account while designing the weapon. The POB and the strange grip would indicate something like that.

Regarding the blade... I got something, but I want to verify it first...
this might take some time.

Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later

William

[Chris Evans]

Hi William.

Originally Posted by William V.

Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later

I think that I have to agree with you. I have an antique fencing sabre that has a very flexible foible (incapable of a serious thrust), yet had a point put on it, and this despite not having an edge - Quite obviously a later modification.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

@ Chris:
I'm getting goosebumps thinking of some "professional" sharpening an old weapon... ... kind of raping....
Having two older beauties which were ground down to get a sharp point, my heart is breaking every time I see them
One is a "training weapon" for duels with a Klingenthal blade (around 1895), with the guard of o duelling weapon which used to have a flattened tip.
Nevertheless a wonderful piece, but... not original any more...
The sharping was done quite professional, I just found out when I checked the length of the weapon and compared it with other weapons.

I've attached two pics.

Coming back to the foil: perhaps the grooves on the grip were made to provide a grip for some kind of leather-wire binding
this would keep the wire in it's place.

All the best

William

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

A very beautiful foil - Thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Chris

[broadaxe]

Beautiful indeed -
yet not a foil, but an epee, note the tri-blade. This is the main duelling weapon of the 19th century, along with the single shot pistol. The shallow hollow indicates an early blade (without a milled groove), the hilt combination suggests an age of 1860-1880's. I used to have a similar epee with a knight's head pommel but of iron rather brass, with a decorated steel dish guard, circa 1900.

[William V.]

Always a pleasure

As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking).

@broadaxe
Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging.
Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date.
And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee?
Thanks in advance.

William

[broadaxe]

Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time.
The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire.
I will try to look up for examples.

By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th...1%7C240%3A1318

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking (perhaps someone elso can read it)

Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far...

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers it is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by William V.

@broadaxe

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers

My pleasure!

t is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

Please do.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

Your wish is my command

I must admit that the picture is not taken from my weapon but from an auction on ebay. But the guard is identical to mine.
The knights helmet and the glove are signs for knighthood and valour (a reminder to fight bravely and with honour during a duel). The so called fasces are a reminiscence to the Romans and related to the French revolution (many are stronger than one alone). The leaves on the one side are olive tree, reminders of the olympic idea (sport aspect) the other ones are oak which might point to the fencer wielding the blade to be hard and endurable.

If someon knows the meaning of the fasces with the protuding hand, please let me know.

Greetz

William

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by William V.

Your wish is my command

Nice one!

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge

@katana:
The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)...

Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly):

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm

This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare....

So far for now.

I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself.


William

[katana]

Originally Posted by William V.

HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge

@katana:
The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)...

Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly):

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm

This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare....

So far for now.

I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself.


William

Well done and thank you William ,
hopefully with this new 'lead' I can get find more information. Nice epee (that you posted) certainly has a more business-like blade. Thank you to you and those whom commented on the foil I posted.

Kind Regards David

[William V.]

A pleasure
but could you please post a picture of the tip?
I'm interested how it was shaped...

William

[katana]

Hi William,
it seems "Cooper and Goodman" made firearms..and seem to have been based in Birmingham..found this...

"......Mr. Goodman’s connection with the gun trade was of long standing. In 1838, when in the employ of the Scholefields, he entered into partnership with Mr. J.R. Cooper, and subsequently with that gentleman’s brother, Mr. Charles Cooper, the business being carried on at first under the name of J.R. Cooper and Co., and afterwards under that of Cooper and Goodman, until 1888....."

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:Y...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

So on that basis the blade was presumably manufactured , at the latest 1888

Here on this page , Lot 869
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:b...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk
"An UNUSUAL .500 Cal. double barrelled Medium Game Rifle by Cooper and Goodman"

and half way down on this page...
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:n...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

"A fine and rare 1856 Pattern rifled service pistol, 25.5cm sighted barrel fitted with rear leaf sights, border engraved lock stamped "1858" over "TOWER" and with a Crown over "VR" at the tail, full stock stamped "WD" and "COOPER & GOODMAN",

After hours of searching ....I'm all googled out Perhaps it is rare ...hopefully one of the 'firearm boys' may have further information on Cooper and Goodman......please

William will post a picture of the 'point' soon

Kind regards David

[William V.]

Bad news...

I got in touch with a fellow blade collector who said, that the information on the "crown above c.g" needs to be updated...
The crown is not in style of the era for the UK, additionally it is a fact that Cooper and Goodman always marked without a crown. He suspects the marking to have belgian origins.

Sorry, to says so: but we have to start anew....

William

[katana]

Hi William,
thanks for letting me know ....never mind, I am sure I will discover the maker at a later date. I have even considered whether the blade may be a re-worked swordstick

Here are the pictures of the point.(both magnified)

Best Regards David

.

[William V.]

Thanks for the pictures,
you are right, the tip looks quite original...

I may have another lead on the marking

Compare the crown on the following marking with your foil.
The blade belongs to a sword produced in 1875 by the Fabrica Nacional de Toledo in Spain.

All the best

William

[katana]

Hi William,
thanks for your continuing input . Going back to the Chassepot bayonet marking ...according to the 'caption' the markings of crown and C.G were verified by Anthony Carter. A quick search shows that he is a respected writer on bayonets ......

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:y...lnk&cd=1&gl=uk

Perhaps he is mis-informed ....or he knows something we don't

However, it was also stated that a number of Chassepots were manufactured in Belgium ......who would have thought a clearly marked blade could be so difficult to identify

Originally Posted by William V.

Thanks for the pictures,
you are right, the tip looks quite original...
William

I am glad it is not just 'wishful thinking' (on my part) that the point may be original to the piece

Regards David

[fernando]

David, you have a PM.
Fernando

[William V.]

Hello @ all.

Unfortunately Mr Anthony Carter died in 2003... so we won't be able to contact him in regard of the marking.
You won't believe how many "clearly marked" weapons are hard to identify.... for example: the above mentioned "PR" marking on the ebay link.

Perhaps someone has a book on belgian sword markings, which could help identifying the "C.G".

The point LOOKS original, but we are not able to verify it... so we must take the most probable solution to this problem

All the best.... and keep looking/searching.

William

[Jim McDougall]

I have just been rereading this thread, and it has developed into an absolutely magnificent example of discussion, presentation, interaction and supported observations that display what true weapons study is all about!!
This kind of joint effort in active research is a prime example of what this forum is meant to promote, where not only the participants learn together, but so do our membership and readers.

As I mentioned in the beginning, there are few resources examining the history and typology of fencing weapons, especially pertaining to makers and suppliers, so it is great to have this thread developing.It is completely fascinating to see the joint participation and ongoing research in examining markings and even when the presumed outcome is not realized, moving on to other possibilities...its like watching forensics examination unfolding, and the unproductive trails stand as benchmarks as well.

Thank you all so much!!! Please keep this going, its exciting to finally be able to learn so much on these fencing weapons, and have this thread develop as a resource for collectors future research.

All very best regards,
Jim

[broadaxe]

Originally Posted by William V.

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

William

William, of course not automatically; this was a process of develpment in the sport. The blade of your Souzy epee does have the deep & narrow milled canellure, but without the additional groove portals for the electric wire. I call this type an intermediate blade. As a point of interesting info, Souzy Paris closed its gates by WWII, so this epee must have been of their later days.

I'm posting here several pics of different types of blades to show differences:
1. Re-fitted dueling epee, came as loose parts without a knuckle bow. The present bow is new. Note the blade has a shallow wide canellure of the late 19th century type. Signed with a sytlized monogram.
2. All original grand epee - very similar blade signed crisply B.P.R. within a cartouche. Nickel-plated steel bowl guard, centered, nickel-plated faceted pommel, riveted tang, metal bound rayskin grip.
3. Point of the above epee - note how the blade turns from tri edge to square (where the arrow is) and tapers into a visciously sharp point.
4. Modern assembled dueling epee with a vintage 'intermadiate' blade - note deep & narrow milled canellure.
5. Electric blade.

[William V.]

Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons
Especially the BPR duelling epee



I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII?

Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades?


All the best

William