More Chinese stuff

[Gavin Nugent]

I said a long time ago that I'd never buy from a dealer but recently I ate my words...never say never. Thanks to some astute eyes within the forum who pointed me to these the moment they appears on a website I couldn't let these get away and I didn't. For my collecting interests, right place right time.
They are fabulous in the hands and sing sweetly through the air
I am chuffed

Gav

[stekemest]

Wonderful dao. Congratulations.
Boxer rebellion?

[Gavin Nugent]

I wouldn't directly attribute these to the Boxer Rebellion as they are a rather more refined weapon than the swords more commonly associated with that particular event. They could well have seen use in this event but not in a Boxer's hand/s
Perhaps some of the other members can come in and comment on this.

Gav

[RSWORD]

These shuangniuweidao are most probably of the late 19th century and maybe up until the turn of the century. The one picture seems to highlight a wide and interesting "hamon" from the heat treatment so they were probably made for use. I agree that they would not have been carried by the general civilian in use in the Boxer Rebellion but it is unknown whom may have carried this type of sword. Given the skill level needed to wield two swords at the same time it was likely a trained martial artist that may have been employed for security detail or something along those lines. The art of surprise would have been helpful with these swords. Imagine a group of thugs harrassing a caravan of merchandise and the "security" comes along and they think he only has one sword and whips it into two swords. Would have made an impressive site and probably a good deterant in such a situation.

[Gavin Nugent]

My thoughts were also with a trained martial artist of the time, much like the ones in the images below or often seen in Hollywood movies were one defends his "house" and or "legacy of a superior style" etc, tests were frequent between people, though I too think seeing one sword turn into two would end most conflicts without a drop of sweat being exerted.
These are seriously dangerous weapons in the right hands and are of a very high quality, great harmons and triple fullers both sides that have been very well executed. The blades are about inch longer than the other sabre I have presented before and wider towards the tip that can be clearly seen in the images. When I actually slip the lanyards over my wrists and start swinging these around I do almost feel bullet proof.

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Gavin,

Congratulations. Seem like an excellent buy!

If only those swords could talk of their adventures... Any nicks or chips on the edges, or any other signs of their having been used?

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Chris,

No signs of edge on edge contact but it is my belief that this shouldn't happen at all in one on one contacts, more the flat or spine should be used. There is one very small forging flaw near the end of the fullers that has been lovingly repaired and a general all over wear that is consistant with day to day handling.
Again, a real treat to play with.

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Chris,

No signs of edge on edge contact but it is my belief that this shouldn't happen at all in one on one contacts, more the flat or spine should be used..

Gav

Hi Gavin,

Ah.... If only things in life went according to our plans....

All the same I envy your magnificent swords. These don''t come up for sale all that often.

Cheers
Chris

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Chris,

No signs of edge on edge contact but it is my belief that this shouldn't happen at all in one on one contacts, more the flat or spine should be used.

Oh, boy. That's quite a Pandora's Box you're opening there, Gav. On certain boards, those are fighting words...

[Gavin Nugent]

Hehe, I am a jester and I am always willing to push the boundries Andrew, have a look in side, let's see what happens if I move the lid a little I do love to play.

Now I could understand nics and chips in the melee associated with large numbers coming face to face with large numbers or cavalry swords beating down on infantry....is there anything coming out of the.... box....

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hehe, I am a jester and I am always willing to push the boundries Andrew, have a look in side, let's see what happens if I move the lid a little I do love to play.

Now I could understand nics and chips in the melee associated with large numbers coming face to face with large numbers or cavalry swords beating down on infantry....is there anything coming out of the.... box....

Gav

Hi Gavin,

This is old territory - I know exactly what's in that can, but I made myself a promise not to ever get involved in another theoretical discussion of fencing on a forum.

However..... How are the blades sharpened? If you divide the blade into three sections, how would you describe the angle of the edge? Like very sharp all the way from the hilt to point or blunt for the first third becoming increasingly sharper towards the point?

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

I wont go there then Chris, I do remember the read quite some time ago,

As for these blades, they both share the fine edge from hilt to tip, but the spine tapers from 9mm at the hilt to just under 1mm at the point where the fullers end then it flares again ever so slightly to 1mm whilst continuing to the tip, all the time retaining the beautifuuly bevelled cutting edge the entire length.

regards

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by freebooter

I wont go there then Chris, I do remember the read quite some time ago,

As for these blades, they both share the fine edge from hilt to tip, but the spine tapers from 9mm at the hilt to just under 1mm at the point where the fullers end then it flares again ever so slightly to 1mm whilst continuing to the tip, all the time retaining the beautifuuly bevelled cutting edge the entire length.

regards

Gav

Hi Gavin,

Thanks for posting these details.

Well, then perhaps we can say with some confidence that at least the edges of these particular swords were not intended for parrying.

As an afterthought, any chance of you posting the dimesions, such as overall length, blade length, maximum and minimum blade width, as well as weight?

Cheers
Chris

[Klas Larsson]

Hi Gavin, I like to show an example of a similar looking shuang dao, that I have.

They are fabulous in the hands and sing sweetly through the air I am chuffed

And I must agree on that, the move so good, new ones I have are much to heavy and clumsy for practice, and I was very pleased when I found these, chuffed is the word...

These looks very much the same, but hard to know just from pictures. But reading this

As for these blades, they both share the fine edge from hilt to tip, but the spine tapers from 9mm at the hilt to just under 1mm at the point where the fullers end

I see they are much thinner at the hilt. They are 74 centimeters long, and blades are 60 centimeters, with 4 millimeters thickness, and 31 millimeters width at the hilt, giving them point of balance at 14 centimeters from the handle. The condition is very good but with a few nicks, but it sounds like I shouldn't dwell on that, seeing that there have been heated debates although that looks like its from play, not actual usage...

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Klas Larsson

Hi Gavin, I like to show an example of a similar looking shuang dao, that I have. And I must agree on that, the move so good, new ones I have are much to heavy and clumsy for practice, and I was very pleased when I found these, chuffed is the word...

These looks very much the same, but hard to know just from pictures. But reading this I see they are much thinner at the hilt. They are 74 centimeters long, and blades are 60 centimeters, with 4 millimeters thickness, and 31 millimeters width at the hilt, giving them point of balance at 14 centimeters from the handle. The condition is very good but with a few nicks, but it sounds like I shouldn't dwell on that, seeing that there have been heated debates although that looks like its from play, not actual usage...

Thanks for coming in Klas,

Great to see another pair shared. Personally I have never been sure on the shuang dao with the cupped brass guards and although I have come across a number of them over the years I have avoided them in preference to the steel guard dao. Upon seeing these though, I am swaying a little more, the wrap is consistant, though not wrapped in a manner to which I am accustomed and they sport lanyards of the same material too . They are also more consistant with a length that I thought would have been more suitable to use in combat and share the same triple fuller arrangement, do they show a hardened inserted edge at all?
The pommels have a nice hoof profile, though they do differ somewhat in the fact that mine have a flat surface on the inside, not that they sit flat against each other in the scabbard, just an observation.
The hilt length is just under 180mm to the underside of the guard, the blade length 770m from guard to tip, 35mm wide across at the hilt and at their widest point are 50mm. The balance point on these are 210mm from the guard.
I do wonder what the colouring of the scabbard, the varience in length and the solid brass guards do mean overall.
Thank you for offering up another lovely pair of unusual swords, I like them very much...now to hunt some more down....I certainly would like to play with some shorter versions.

thanks

Gav

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gavin,

Thank you for going to the trouble of posting the sword's dimensions, especially the POB. Any idea of their individual weight?

Klas Larsson,

Lovely swords - Thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for popping into the other posting Chris, it gave me the memory bump I needed to post the answer to you questions.

The total weight in the scabbard for both dao is 2.25kgs.
Each sabre weighs 950 grams.

thanks

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks for popping into the other posting Chris, it gave me the memory bump I needed to post the answer to you questions.

The total weight in the scabbard for both dao is 2.25kgs.
Each sabre weighs 950 grams.

thanks

Gav

Hi Gavin,

Much obliged.

Cheers
Chris

[KuKulzA28]

Having a big fascination for Chinese dao and shuang dao I thought I'd resurrect this thread with questions...

Do they tend to be as long/heavy as many normal dao?
In my mind, it seems if they were a bit shorter than average and a bit lighter than average, they'd be easier to whirl around and kill... Also a shorter dao would be faster to draw. But then again I'm sure, like most weapons of the time, sizes varied quite a bit.

I have seen very few examples of shuang dao online, and all of them ox-tails... but how common were Goose-quills and Willow-leaves in the double bladed style?


Thanks!

[Neil]

I am certainly not discounting others thoughts on their use, but they would make for a fine and beguiling street performance tool as well.

[josh stout]

I love double weapons and have been thinking about these questions for a while. Full size shuang jian are extremely rare, while full size shuang dao are only slightly more common. The examples of these that I have seen are all late 19th c. or later. Earlier examples of both jian and dao tend to have had blades around 20 inches or shorter and frequently show signs of substantial use. These older examples tend not to be in as good condition. I have a book of woodblock prints showing Ming period soldiers using various kinds of siege towers that shows a substantial proportion using two willow-leaf shaped swords. There are several woodblock prints showing these types of soldiers, but they are the only examples I have seen. Usually double weapons are a sign that the user did not belong to the regular army. The woodblocks are interesting to note for their very specific depictions. The soldiers with two swords were part of groups, preparing to clear defenders from walls. I suspect that in regular massed combat, double swords could have been too dangerous for ones own side. They seem particularly good for wading into masses and having at it, rather than being part of a mass fighting another mass.

Also it has been noted that there would have been a considerable surprise element for a double weapon wielder. This would make sense for a caravan guard or someone working for a security firm, but no one would run screaming if they were calmly looking out over an apposing army and one of them suddenly produced two swords. As further evidence of the lack of the need for surprises of this sort when part of a large army, it can be seen in the wood block examples that the swords have full round guards. Thus they were much more likely to be simply a matched set rather than true shuang dao. Surprise was not the issue, clearing the wall was the issue.

Unfortunately, matched sets of willow leaf or other dao have probably all been split up and might not be recognized even if they did exist. I saw a matched set of training dao once that was split up because it was not understood that the swords might belong together. I do have two sets of sword breakers that are sets, but not designed to fit in a single sheath. I bet there used to be more sets of different kinds of weapons that are now split.
Josh

[KuKulzA28]

Wow, thanks for the information Josh, I didn't know that! The difference between civilian and military paired swords as evidenced by the guards is a very good observation...

Perhaps those specially skilled double-saber troops of the Ming era were hired mercenaries? Or perhaps specially trained troops? I was always under the impression that double blades were more of a skill that civilian martial artists occasionally were taught and trained and that the government's military generally did not have that as part of their training.

I wonder, when did double blades begin getting longer - and why? Shorter blades are easier to draw and better in tighter spaces. Was there a change in metallurgy, military "fashion"/preferences, or contemporary fighting???

[josh stout]

The full size double weapons I have seen tend to be very late and of lower quality steel than the earlier ones that show signs of substantial use.

It looks like the beginning of the 20th c. and the very end of the Qing is the deviding line.

Gavin just let a set of older full size ones go that would be the exception to this rule.

Josh

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by josh stout

The full size double weapons I have seen tend to be very late and of lower quality steel than the earlier ones that show signs of substantial use.

It looks like the beginning of the 20th c. and the very end of the Qing is the deviding line.

Would that be because of them no longer being primary fighting weapons, or because of a decline in swordsmithing skills, or a decline in skilled martial arts practitioners... or all of the above?

Originally Posted by josh stout

Gavin just let a set of older full size ones go that would be the exception to this rule.

The set shown at the top of this thread or another one... ?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Neil

I am certainly not discounting others thoughts on their use, but they would make for a fine and beguiling street performance tool as well.

I agree. My dao most likely for street performance

[KuKulzA28]

It is a very nice looking set of dao though... what give it away as a street performance tool? The lower quality steel? No hardened edge? Different heft and balance?

[Mercenary]

Heft and balance are very nice specially for street performance.
About hardened edge I don't know because the blade is covered by a patina (film, covering - sorry, I don't know as it correctly in English). The steel is not the most bad, but also not the watered steel.
There is no sensation of the real fighting weapon. And there are too much photos of street jugglers and there are not enough certificates of using the pair weapon in army.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

It is a very nice looking set of dao though... what give it away as a street performance tool? The lower quality steel? No hardened edge? Different heft and balance?

I am sure you'll find these very well balanced.
At face value also with a good hardened edge, of typical strength and steel for the type....nothing a good clean wouldn't reveal.
Nice pair, do you have a scabbard?

[Mercenary]

Unfortunately, I haven't a scabbard. The handle was plaited again, but the cord is Chinese old.

[Mercenary]

to josh stout

I have a book of woodblock prints showing Ming period soldiers using various kinds of siege towers that shows a substantial proportion using two willow-leaf shaped swords.

This book is E.Werner "Chinese Weapons" or other?