Sword I.D. Help Needed

[Clubs & Arrows]

Hello,
I picked up this sword in a collection recently, and was wondering if anyone in the forum could help me with it's origin. The overall length is 39 1/4" , with the blade accounting for 31 3/4" of the length. I can't find any marking on the piece at all. The leather covering over the wooden grip has seen better days. I collect Pacific Island weapons, so this is a little out of my range of collecting.

Thank you,
Joe

[Ed]

That is interesting.

The hilt has sort of an "alive" look.

I'd bet that it is decorative, 19th c. The blade though looks like it might be authentic. Sort of hard to tell without handling it.

[Jim McDougall]

I'm with Ed on this, it does have the look of 19th century interpretation of a rapier, using what appears to be a 19th century sabre blade. An attractive piece that might well be theatrical.

Thanks for posting it Joe, looks like it probably handles pretty well!

Best regards,
Jim

[Ed]

and another dratted "Urn" pommel

[Paul Macdonald]

Hi Folks,

Looks like a C19th stage sword to me.

The grip, pommel and quite possibly hilt appear to be C19th, and possibly with a cut down or ex-military blade. A bit difficult to be more specific or sure without handling and close examination.

All the best,

Macdonald

[Marc]

I agree, it looks like a mismatch of original, made up, and contemporary parts, trying to reproduce a 16tt-17th c. düssage - type weapon. As Paul said, pommel looks, at the best, later, the shell is made on the spot, the cross-block (a swordsmith friend of mine likes to call it "the spider", not a bad name) may be original... or not, and the blade could indeed easily be a 19th c. recycled military blade. It definitely would need a hands-on inspection to work out the details, but, as a whole, I agree that it seems a 19th. c product.

[Matchlock]

Hi Joe,

although I do not have an expertise in edged weapons, a friend of mine sure does and this is what he can attribute to your item:

It is not 'decorative' as one member feels but is of ca. 1730's date and definitely an early pirate's saber before they all began looking more or less the same in the second half of the 18th century.

He remembers reading on them and will share the details when he has found out.

Have fun with your rare piece!

Michael

[Atlantia]

The handle looks wrong, and the pommel looks a little worrying with that banded handle, but i'd have still said that its a late 17thC 'fighting' broadsword.
I think the blade and shell guard look fine together. Love to handle it and examine it in person. Nice sword. I'd have a punt at it if I got the chance.

[celtan]

I think its either a Dussage-tessak or a Skibshuggert...

M

[chevalier]

i love the point on that blade.


could this be dutch (maybe even VOC, just without the company mark?)

[celtan]

It certainly can. It could also be Swedish, German or even Danish.

Best

M

[celtan]

I found today a similar 17th C. spanish sword now called a "Sinclair". It's on p.63 of Well's "Small arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets". Seems these were used by several european nations.

[celtan]

Hi Ed,

Saw today a few urn-pommels,

Wither's "World Swords": German c.1600 Two handed sword. German Two-handed Stoc. C. 1500, both in p. 18. German Executioner Sword c. 1680 p. 14. and a squared sided version on p. 16, set on a German Bastard Sword c. 1600.

In Bull's "An Historical Guide to Arms and Armor" there's another couple of these pesky beasties on p. 104 set in two German Two-handers of C. 1580.

I mean, there aren't two exactly alike, but the design and form is there, quite apparent.

Best

Manolo

Originally Posted by Ed

and another dratted "Urn" pommel

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

I found today a similar 17th C. spanish sword now called a "Sinclair". It's on p.63 of Well's "Small arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets". Seems these were used by several european nations.

Hi Celtan,
Just wanted to add some notes on the 'Sinclair Sabre'.
This term was applied to the basket hilted fighting sabres of 16th and 17th century Northern Europe by romantic Victorian arms writers, recalling a historic event known as The Battle of Kringen, in Norway Aug. 26,1612.

Apparantly during the Kalmar War between Denmark and Sweden concerning trade rights on the north coast of Norway, a force of Scottish mercenaries led by Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsay were headed to Sweden to join the forces of Gustavus Adolphus. In one of the subordinate companies as its commander was the Chief of the Sinclair Clan, Lord George Sinclair, who was well known in Norwegian regions. Near Otta, Norway on August 26,1612, Norwegian peasants ambushed and massacred the Scottish force, and notably heralded the victory with the name of Sinclair, the most prominant figure to them.

While it is not known if these type sabres were used by the Scottish force, it is most unlikely, as they were recorded as lightly armed with mostly Lochaber axes and a few broadswords, expecting to be armed upon arrival in Sweden.
As these basket hilt sabres were well known as the 'dusagge' and typically associated with Northern Europe, the Victorian writers noting the tragic event and the often seen association of these sabres with Norway, applied the name Sinclair to these swords, which has remained used by collectors since.

'Collectors terms' .....gotta love 'em! They give us whole new dimensions of history themselves

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

THX Jim!

We live and learn.

M

We sure do Celtan! and thats what I love about this Forum, so we can all do that together. I'm really curious about the reference you mentioned, I've never seen that particular term applied to any Spanish sword. Was it one of the dusagge type sabres?

All the best,

Jim

Sorry Celtan,
What I need to learn most is how to hit the right button on this keyboard!!! I meant to quote and hit edit......bonk!!!
Funny....I never make misteakes!

[celtan]

: )

Hi Jim,

The book it appears is in "Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets", p. 63-64. It discusses the lack of_regulation_ cutlasses and curved blades in the Spanish navy and army, citing they weren't officially accepted until 1806, albeit being used following personal preference.

Best

M