Inscription on the blade

ariel · 11th July 2008, 01:57 AM

My camera died......
I have no choice but to bother you with a really bad question, and will not be offended by snide remarks (" Get a new one, jerk" etc)
I got a 19th cen Turkish Kilij/Shamshir , typical handle, fittings etc. The blade is European cavalry, no manufacturer markings. Both sides of the ricasso bear inscription "Pro Deo et Patria" and these are bordered ( over and under) by geometrical ornaments.
I have seen this inscription and designs on Hungarian blades.
Are you aware of blades from elsewhere bearing the same inscription?

Valjhun · 11th July 2008, 02:05 AM

Typical Austrian and then Austro-hungaric motto. For God and Fatherland. They used a lot of such inscriptions like viribus unitis, pro hereditate, ecc. on their medals, swords, ecc. They regarded themselves as successors of the roman empire.

eeeemmmm.... get a new cam

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 02:08 AM

Ouch! Sorry Ariel...many condolences.
You're right, that motto is typical on Hungarian blades, usually 18th c. but dont think that particular one occurs outside the Eastern European region of Holy Roman Empire. I know it occurs on Pandour related sabres. It seems unusual for an Ottoman weapon to carry one of these European blades, are you sure it isnt European with hilt style Ottoman.

ariel · 11th July 2008, 02:50 AM

Man thanks to both of you for confirming my suspicions.
Jim, this is 100% Ottoman.
Here are e-bay pics:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1810-Napoleonic-...070QQssPageNam

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2008, 03:41 AM

Thanks Ariel, you're right, definitely Ottoman.
This is the second example of Ottoman 'pistol grip' type hilt that has appeared without crossguard (in both cases clearly removed), the other one was posted by Gilbo, and that had a kilij blade.This seems unusual, that either someone is removing the crossguards on these Ottoman sabres or there was some movement at some time among Ottoman troops to emulate shashkas.

ariel · 11th July 2008, 05:42 AM

I think it was just lost.
There was no movement among the Cossacks to convert Islamic sabers into "shashka"-like contraptions.

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2008, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think it was just lost.
There was no movement among the Cossacks to convert Islamic sabers into "shashka"-like contraptions.

LOL!! Darn it, I thought I was onto something, and those Zaporishians were trying to conform to the Don's by altering their kilij's and shamshirs.

Gotta admit it is coincidental for two of these coming up within a month.

Really though, that is a great blade! and I've always liked the inscribed panels and motif on these East European blades.

ariel · 12th July 2008, 06:53 AM

Russian Imperial shamshir-like sabers were locally called " klych". Incidentally, this is exactly what the Beduins call their "pseudo-shashkas". Unquestionably, both names are derived from Turkish Kilic ( or Kilij). The Russians had very limited military contact with the Persian Empire ( besides drubbing them in passing and imposing their will on the Persian treatment of the Christian Armenians). They, however, had multiple wars with the Turks and expropriated their swords. including Adjemi Kilic ( Persian -style sword, ie Shamshir).
I am looking for a brass crossguard with straight langets for this puppy; if anybody has one, please contact me.

TVV · 12th July 2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Russian Imperial shamshir-like sabers were locally called " klych". Incidentally, this is exactly what the Beduins call their "pseudo-shashkas". Unquestionably, both names are derived from Turkish Kilic ( or Kilij). The Russians had very limited military contact with the Persian Empire ( besides drubbing them in passing and imposing their will on the Persian treatment of the Christian Armenians). They, however, had multiple wars with the Turks and expropriated their swords. including Adjemi Kilic ( Persian -style sword, ie Shamshir).
I am looking for a brass crossguard with straight langets for this puppy; if anybody has one, please contact me.

A friend of mine recently had a shamshir with Turkish hilt (no yelman, sham blade, I would rather call a sword by the blade than the hilt), missing the crossguard. He had one specially cast, and it took a skilled craftsmen to fit it. Still, getting an original grossguard would be a better option, but those are rare, and who knows if it will fit the hilt and the scabbard.
As for the Russians, I am looking at Durov's book on award weapons and it seems that many of the irregular troops were awarded with nice shamshirs, along with certain allies in Central Asia. In this case however, I think this is a trade blade that ended up in the Ottoman Empire, rather than a trophy or an award. Bulgarian folk songs from the 18th and 19th centuries often mention a sword in the form of "sabre frengia", which leads me to believe that blades of Western origin were quite valued in the Balkans and that such a "fringia" was perhaps the ultimate, most valuable sword one could own.
Very nice sword!
Teodor

11th July 2008, 01:57 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Inscription on the blade My camera died...... I have no choice but to bother you with a really bad question, and will not be offended by snide remarks (" Get a new one, jerk" etc) I got a 19th cen Turkish Kilij/Shamshir , typical handle, fittings etc. The blade is European cavalry, no manufacturer markings. Both sides of the ricasso bear inscription "Pro Deo et Patria" and these are bordered ( over and under) by geometrical ornaments. I have seen this inscription and designs on Hungarian blades. Are you aware of blades from elsewhere bearing the same inscription?

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11th July 2008, 02:05 AM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Typical Austrian and then Austro-hungaric motto. For God and Fatherland. They used a lot of such inscriptions like viribus unitis, pro hereditate, ecc. on their medals, swords, ecc. They regarded themselves as successors of the roman empire. eeeemmmm.... get a new cam

11th July 2008, 02:08 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Ouch! Sorry Ariel...many condolences. You're right, that motto is typical on Hungarian blades, usually 18th c. but dont think that particular one occurs outside the Eastern European region of Holy Roman Empire. I know it occurs on Pandour related sabres. It seems unusual for an Ottoman weapon to carry one of these European blades, are you sure it isnt European with hilt style Ottoman.

11th July 2008, 02:50 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Man thanks to both of you for confirming my suspicions. Jim, this is 100% Ottoman. Here are e-bay pics: http://cgi.ebay.com/1810-Napoleonic-...070QQssPageNam

11th July 2008, 03:41 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thanks Ariel, you're right, definitely Ottoman. This is the second example of Ottoman 'pistol grip' type hilt that has appeared without crossguard (in both cases clearly removed), the other one was posted by Gilbo, and that had a kilij blade.This seems unusual, that either someone is removing the crossguards on these Ottoman sabres or there was some movement at some time among Ottoman troops to emulate shashkas.

11th July 2008, 05:42 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think it was just lost. There was no movement among the Cossacks to convert Islamic sabers into "shashka"-like contraptions.

12th July 2008, 06:53 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Russian Imperial shamshir-like sabers were locally called " klych". Incidentally, this is exactly what the Beduins call their "pseudo-shashkas". Unquestionably, both names are derived from Turkish Kilic ( or Kilij). The Russians had very limited military contact with the Persian Empire ( besides drubbing them in passing and imposing their will on the Persian treatment of the Christian Armenians). They, however, had multiple wars with the Turks and expropriated their swords. including Adjemi Kilic ( Persian -style sword, ie Shamshir). I am looking for a brass crossguard with straight langets for this puppy; if anybody has one, please contact me.