Machete from Span-Am war?

[carlos]

This auction just finished in ebay. The seller think the sword is from China or Japan but I think is from Cuba.
What are your opinions?, somebody identified the marks of the blade?
Thanks in advance

Carlos

http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWN:IT&ih=018

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Carlos,
Thank you for posting this. These seem to be largely Spanish American War bringbacks, and about fifteen years ago, maybe longer, I found one exactly like this that was said provenanced from Monterrey, Mexico. Lots of research later, I was told by an authority on Spanish colonial weapons that these were from Cuba brought back by military during the Spanish American War.

According to authorities in Spain, these are typically considered from the Philippines, but given the Spanish trade routes this certainly seems possible as well. The blade on mine had the deep stamps in rows the full length of the blade, which was heavily patinated so seemed much earlier than the Spanish American War period.

The shellguard is interesting also with the multiple striated lines which correspond to shellguard espana anchas attributed now to Brazil c.1800 (see the pirate weapons thread, posted by Mark Eley).

I have no idea what those rows of deep marks might mean, but in the repitition seen appear to be simply motif.

Has anyone seen these show up in Philippine regions?

All best regards,
Jim

[Battara]

Yes I have (and have seen) Spanish-American sword bring backs.......

BUT NOTHING LIKE THIS PIECE!

[Rick]

Yes, didn't we see this hilt form also referenced in a Berber Sabre thread ?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=berber+sabre

[Jim McDougall]

Rick, how do you do it!!! Your memory and eye is amazing!!
That sure is it OK.
The blade on the one I had was pretty rough, and it had the guard but no striations. This one is really nice.

All the best,
Jim

[OAKSP]

WOW !!!!

Seems to be a customized ancient colonial sword for Spanish American Campaing....

More info at
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf


A good piece !!!!!!!!!

[ariel]

I cannot help but re-post my earlier ( somewhat embarrassing ) contribution:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4874
I showed another sword with identical markings and a Nimcha marked " Nueva Granada" ( now Colombia).
I guess Spanish South American blades did end up in North Africa.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually that was an excellent contribution Ariel! so cant see why you would be embarrassed.........now when I reread my posts analyzing these ....Cuba, Algeria, Philippines, Balkans, Bedouins etc etc....good grief! I brought in everything but Elvis and UFO's!!! now thats embarrassing

Excellent example that Marc posted there, and I thought your sabre was really an attractive item.

OAKSP, excellent item you show here also. It really is amazing how many weapons we have looked at over the years and considered Spanish colonial or North African, and never realized the possibility of Cuba and South America.

All the best,
Jim

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

When I saw the hilt, my first impression was:

- European influence: 17thC Clamshell D guard

- Yemeni influence: Brass nails/studs

- Malay influence: Makara pommel(?)

Forgive my ignorance.

Best.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody,

When I saw the hilt, my first impression was:

- European influence: 17thC Clamshell D guard

- Yemeni influence: Brass nails/studs

- Malay influence: Makara pommel(?)

Forgive my ignorance.

Best.

Amuk,
These were all outstanding deductions! and display reasoning as far from ignorance as can be!!! Every one of those observations has distinct merit.
As you can see, these unique weapons have been puzzling many if not most of us for years...I know that I can personally note the ten or more years that I have considered these swords identification inconclusive.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

There is a similar blade currently on you know where that is Mexican so I too would say Spanish American war, Cuban or Mexican origins but my initial thoughts without studying further were North African....

Gav

[Gonzalo G]

I just found this thread. This is a variation of the spanish colonial machete used by the Ejército de Ultramar in Puerto Rico and Cuba, a model known as Guanabacoa. It seems a modified version, or a custom version. Please see this document:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

My best regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Gonzalo, that is a magnificent reference! Thank you for posting it as it clearly substantiates the Cuban attribution to these unusual fingerstalled weapons. I recall my first experience with one of these which I obtained about 13 years ago. It had provenance to Monterrey, Mexico and the blade was absolutely a blacksmith grade weapon with a heavy steel blade, unfullered, with these curvy motif stamps in repeated motif pattern most of its length.
With its provenance and heavy brass hilt with the same shape, fingerstalled and with crude shellguard and knucklebow added, much of the general thinking toward the piece was associated with the espada ancha of frontier regions in Mexico.

Some years later I was fortunate to have some good discussions with a former curator of an Arizona museum who indicated that one of these had once been among thier holdings, and the concensus was that it was from Cuba. In a catalog of a well known dealer whose name I will not note, there were two of these captioned as Algerian swords! Later, another of these turned up in an auction in London, listed as Mexican.

This reference seems excellent, and concurs with several other sources who claim these weapons, in some slight variations, were brought home by troops returning from the Spanish American war in both Cuba and the Philippines.

Thank you Gonzalo for the outstanding reference, which I can now add to my notes, and we can consider this one pretty much resolved

Nicely done, and the follow through very much appreciated.

All the best,
JIm

[Gonzalo G]

Thank YOU, Jim, for your continuous support.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[machinist]

I have purchased one of these Guanabacoa swords and thought I would add the pics and a little info to this thread, There is a book accessible online called The Annual Register of World Events that was supposedly published in 1805 about events of importance or interest happening in1803https://books.google.com/books?id=9Z...0sword&f=false

The description of the swords seems spot-on and that gives us a verifiable date for these and an implication they must have been used earlier in the 1700s as well as a description of who carried them and a bit of info on their lives.
The blade is stamped MARIAN and I am curious about all the little stamps these swords seem to carry.

[mdp10003]

I have seen at least 2 examples like this that were attributed to the Philippines, but the references here do suggest that they are Cuban. The attribution to the Philippines did not seem to be strongly supported.

[machinist]

I think the attribution to the Philippines may be partially because it was such an unknown piece for many dealers and they had to come up with some provenance so why not the Philippines, and the attribution would carry on for years however some may have been carried far abroad as sailors and soldiers do travel.
I have seen several Chinese and south Asian spearheads offered as Spanish colonial And it is difficult to tell a sellers boosting of an object from an item that was brought here in olden days.
Here is another picture of a relatively more modern machete supposedly from Cuba patterned after the old style