End of sword collecting in the UK

[spiral]

Try BritishBlades law section Tim, it full of lawyers & policemen as well as the commoners who have been discusimg this for months.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks for that. I gave it a try. Ignoring all the emotional stuff one good thing I could glean from ask a COP is that COPS work on discretion. So at my next militeria fair of which there are two organisers, held roughly quarterly in my local. Both almost adjacent to the respective COP shop. When I attend the next event I will see if the police raid it like a speakeasy. There will be one coming up soon i'll pass on my findings. If I a not in chains .

[spiral]

Good, glad it helped Tim,

Cops do work on discretion, but the cops on that forum collect knives, most police dont.

They will let off a fisherman or camper on his way home with a fixed blade, many police wont, or ignore a leatherman as long as your not wearing a basball cap & talking with a Liverpool accent.

But good luck! I would love this law not to be inforced, but somehow I doubt it in the long run.

PCs have arrest quotas to fill know a days & most police dont like knives never mind swords.

Spiral

[kronckew]

OK, here it is the day after doomsday1 with doomsday2 in October.

has anyone seen the official law yet? all i can find is the 'proposed' law, and the joke 'consultation'.

i'm assuming that in spite of that, all vendors are assuming the worst and refusing to sell anything (like ebay) till it gets clarified and a bit clearer than the current mud...

i see the home office says

1. 'don't ask us, we just make the law, we don't interpret it - ask your solicitor'.
2. the solicitors say, don't know, we haven't seen the final law yet, we'll have to ask the home office.
3. goto 1

i still do not see why they wasted all that time on a new law that they themselves admit was covered by earlier legislation. i know they have better things to do, i just wish they knew they did.

[Mark]

The "sport" exception is interesting. It presumably is aimed at rapier & sabre fencing, but it should cover just about any martial art with a weapons for, no? Iaito, bando, escrima, selat, etc., etc. What does paragraph 1(r) describe?

Also, I wonder how much "activity" is required in order to be considered "sporting activity?" Maybe if you put on warm-ups and take your swords out back or down into the cellar and swing it a few times you are OK. Specify in a sale that it is for use in "sporting activity." Vague language is a two-way street, fortunately.

[spiral]

Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit.

Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.}

I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK.

Spiral

[spiral]

Heres some more info on the new law from the UK knife collectors & traders association.

spiral

linky

[wolviex]

Buhahaha - this is England. If you're asking what will be banned next, here is the answer:

link


And by the way. According to the explanation, provided by the link above, all swords over 100 years old (so labeled as antique) are legal, aren't they? The other thing is to prove their age..., but it doesn't mean end of collecting then.

regards!

[Mark]

They do the same thing in the US, depending on which way the political wind blows and whose courtroom you are in. Interpret broadly or narrowly, depending on what social engineering result you are after. We may have more lee-way for attorney argument to swing things one way or the other, dispite what the judge wants.

Originally Posted by spiral

Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit.

Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.}

I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK.

Spiral

[Lew]

Soon the moron lawmakers will ban cricket bats, broom handles,hammers,pointy sticks and what ever else that can be used to do bodily harm You will always have a problem with gangs and hot headed young people who decide to settle their differences through violence. Making collectors of historical arms into criminals will not stop the trouble makers they will always find a way to the crime. I feel the law makers in the UK are slowly slipping down a dangerous slope here. You see how effectively the switch blade ban of the 1950s here in the USA worked gang members no longer use them they have graduated to 9mm pistols and assaut rifles

Lew

[kronckew]

guns are of course illegal for the common man over here, with few exceptions; two thugs break into your home for the second time in as many weeks & you shoot one of them, you get to go away for a few years, even tho they had baseball bats they intended to use on you. catch a burglar about to enter your childs room & grab a steak knife out of the sink as you both go thru the kitchen as he tries to get away by hitting & kicking you & you stab him, it's assault with a deadly weapon and possession of an offensive weapon for you. the criminal in these can also sue you for damages sustained during the commission of your illegal assault on them. (the first case, after the farmer got out of jail, his 'victim' who had been shot in the leg sued him for loss of earnings in his career as a burglar, and may have won except he was filmed running across a road to get to court - not quite as disabled as his cane & poorly leg performance in court was supposed to show - that was too much even for the liberal press here & he dropped the case after being laughed at by all)

oh, and since the ban on firearms, they cannot understand why the use of them in crimes continues to rise sharply.

[josh stout]

I think the American oversupply of guns, particularly in the hands of teenage boys is nutty, but I can see that the nuttiness can go the other way. Is there no way to win a fight legally in England?

Anyway, I was glad to see that anything over 100 years is exempt. There are so many things that are "early 20th/late 19th C." that I am sure there will be a sudden switch to things being listed simply a late 19th c.

What happens over time? In 2050 will all the WWII stuff be legal? Is the WWI stuff about to become legal?

Is a pedeng larus a straight or curved sword? what about a kris with lots of curves?

So an antique with a new handle is still an antique, how far does that go? What if only the handle is old? What if it is only a one nail?

Laws in general have an inherent problem with absurdity given they are absolute rules in a relativistic universe, but this one seems more absurd than most.
josh

[spiral]

I didnt realise it worked the same way there Mark...cheers.


Josh i think the problem will be if ebay or police decide to say you have to proove a sword is over 100years old, {that is a rolling date, thats why i got rid of many of my. ww2 issue dated/marked kukris last year by trading them for ww1 ones.} {still kept one speiceim of each main type for ww2 issue of course .] Plus the fact in 5 years time, I figure anything ww1 dated will get magnificent premiums with all the remberance stuff & ww1 anniversaries.

In England you can only defend yourself on your own property if you are attacked, if the burglar tries to escape you are supposed to let them. you can only stab, chop or otherwise ruin thier day for them if your are under attack & "fear for your life or that of others."

Sadley the people who get arrested & covicted for seriosly damaging burglars probably didnt know that.


Spiral

[BBJW]

Originally Posted by josh stout

I think the American oversupply of guns, particularly in the hands of teenage boys is nutty, but I can see that the nuttiness can go the other way. Is there no way to win a fight legally in England?


most.
josh

It is illegal for "teenage boys" (under 18) to buy handguns, but not rifles or shotguns. Most guns used in crime are obtained outside the law. There is no more an oversupply of guns here than an oversupply of swords (or axes, hammers, etc.) in the UK. Thank God for the 2nd Amendment!

bbjw

[kronckew]

just heard there is to be an amendment to the silliest part of the law, in that countries other than japan who make swords by 'traditional methods' are also to be exempted.

Law Linky

still written in the obscure ancient legalese dialect, but at least they are showing a bit of an 'oops, we screwed up' attitude.

[katana]

Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rs-865254.html

Regards David

[Lew]

Originally Posted by katana

Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rs-865254.html

Regards David

David

It seems that this crimes are being committed with ordinary kitchen knives and by teenagers so hopefully your law makers will realize this and not get too crazy.

[katana]

Hi Lew,
Hopefully you are right.

There have been televised debates, recently, on the issues of knife and gun crime in Britain. A 'political' commitee were interviewing youth workers, people involved in 'community schemes' etc. to gain insight into what is happening 'in the street'. Fortunately the interviewees all had ideas based on common sense and their experiences. They collectively saw 'gang culture' (one of the main reasons for the increase in knife/gun crime) as the main factor, and that it was occuring due to 'Social issues'.... the root cause. There was no input that increased legislation would 'help' the situation.

Hopefully, 'the word on the street' is being listened to, by those that can do something about it.

Regards David

[David]

Well, they could ban ALL knives over there, but i'm sure it would not be too long before they would see the first in a series of "spork" killings.

[kronckew]

the news media and the police are hyping it up by reporting that the govt. wants all people found carrying a knife to go to jail. the police conveniently promoted the 'sword ban' without mentioning the exemptions as they wanted every one to be turned in, illegal or not. the news always leave out the word illegal when mentioning carrying knives, that is the govt. & politicians usually say 'the illegal carrying of knives' or some such qualification, where the liberal media prefer simplify it by implying all carriage is illegal. it is not.

any non-locking folding knife with an edge length under three inches can be carried for whatever reason you deem necessary by someone over the age of 18; a fixed, or locking folding knife, or one over 3in. edge can be carried if you have a reason acceptable to the police, like you are fishing, on the way to work, where you need it to open boxes, etc. (note it is the police who decide if a reason is acceptable, not you).

having said that, i'll not take any of my legal little folders into london as the 'security' manning the metal detectors on train and subway stations probably can't use a ruler even if they knew the law and if they confiscate it, even in error, it's gone. like in the states, they don't man them with their brightest sparks. rulz iz rulz.

as someone mentioned earlier, in the elizabethan age when most people wore knives routinely, most murders were done with a cudgel.

luckily i am old and infirm and require a walking stick to enable me to walk at all.
NOT

[Rumpel]

Hi all,

I was just wondering if there's been any update on this. I'm going to Morocco tomorrow, and am wondering what the likelihood of me being stopped at customs on my return with, say, :

a) an antique saif/nimcha
b) a new, but 'handmade' saif/nimcha
c) a takouba

would be, and whether the outcome would be positive (for me ).

I've printed out the amendment posted above, to hand to any officious customs types, but was wondering if there's anything more conclusive I could show them.

Thanks,

Rumpel

[ALEX]

Rumpel, hopefully you will find something nice during your trip, and be able to bring it home. I'd certainly talk to customs BEFORE, especially if you intend to bring a sword. Do not trust rumours - go to the source. Also, make sure you have a receipt stating the provenance, age, etc. and inquire for export authorisation if possible or required. Good luck.

On the note of this thread, here is an interesting article. I am sure there would be more people to advocate the tougher edged weapons laws:-)

[Lew]

Ok that sword does not look like a 30,000 pound antique more like a knock off of a gunto sword to me and if the sword was sharp she would have more than a gash. Yes it is terrible but of of course the media must embelish the facts

Lew

[Battara]

Perhaps I'm a crazy American, but if blades were all banned, clubbings would rise.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Battara

Perhaps I'm a crazy American, but if blades were all banned, clubbings would rise.

Never ever take a sword or a club to a gun fight.......

[kronckew]

we have lost of clubbers here in theUK.


aside from perps using more firearms, secure in the knowledge that their victims will almost surely be unarmed, the 'cool' thing to use as a weapon is furry and four legged.



of course one should never bring a dog to a hyena fight.



and never bring a hyena to a lion fight



and never bring a lion to a liger fight,



and so on, ad nauseum.



the weapon is not important, it's the mind behind it's control that is dangerous, not the tool - well, maybe the t-rex...

[Mefidk]

Just following up on the legal consequences in Denmark of carrying a knife. Just recently a man was stopped by police here for a routine check and it was found that he had two hobby knives in the back of his car. These knives were used at work to open cardboard boxes and he had forgotten that they were there. This is very easy to do, I know my wife often comes home with one of these in her pocket because she has been opening boxes last thing before the shop shuts and forgets she has put a knife in her pocket.
For the man with the hobby knife in his car the consequences were to my mind ludicrously serious. Not only did he receive a fine and a criminal record, he was also sentenced to one week in prison.
I do not believe there was any doubt about the truthfulness of the man's claims, nor was he acting in any anti-social manner. So he was just unlucky and fell foul of similar poorly thought through legislation to that we see from the UK.

Collectors here can (I believe) still transport weapons to and from meetings if they have a license, but it is getting very difficult to obtain weapons any other way. The argument from the postal services is that their staff do not have these weapons licenses so they cannot legally carry swords or knives. Some couriers do still carry weapons but this is expensive and those that specialise in this are very expensive indeed. This begins to make it very difficult for collectors on a limited budget. This is especially difficult for ethnographic weapons since there precious few of these knocking around at the weapons fairs I've been to here in DK, so almost all of my purchases come from abroad and need to be carried by post or courier!

All in all this is beginning to feel like a difficult hobby to pursue in Denmark