Karabela for comment

[Jeff D]

Thanks for the too kind words

As Jim has expertly noted the hilt form is Ottoman and of course covers a large geographic area. Here are a couple more Ottoman hilts from Swords and Hilt Weapons
Thanks for the better shots of the hilt, It is always great to collect as much data as we can.

All the Best
Jeff

[ariel]

Well, gentlemen, we are entering a new topic: the origin of the Karabela handle. Persian? Turkish? Arabian? ( I doubt the latter, but just for the sake of completeness).
We were led to believe that the "eagle head" handle was invented by Shah Abbas himself who got the idea observing the silhouettes of the windows at the shrine in Karbala ( I am not mentioning the author of this hypothesis, but it was published in a very big book).
The fact (as I understand it) that the shrine was not even built at that time presents a slight inconvenience...( to me, not to the author).
The popularity of these handles in Balkan countries and in Hungary suggests to me that the original source was Turkish. Also, karabelas were mentioned in Polish books and depicted in Polish sources well before Poles established friendly relations with the Persians, but well into their long and bloody wars with the Turks. The Ottoman origin of the" eaglehead" handle also explains its popularity in Arabia.
Did it come from the locality named Karabel ( Near Izmir?)

[TVV]

The question about the origin of the karabela hilt is a hard one, from what I have read so far, perhaps just as hard as determining what the name "karabela" originates from - is it "black curse" in Turkish, Kerbala, or Karabel near Izmir?
I wonder whether it would be best to first see where this hilt form gained popularity, such as Poland, Arabia, Balkans, etc. and then start eliminating certain regions from the list of potential candidates?

[Jeff D]

Great idea Ariel, and thanks Teodor for letting us divert your thread.

The "big book" is a good accumulation of information on shamshirs and brings to light many example that would not have been seen in the west. Unfortunately the book was original intended for the Cultural Heritage Instutution of Iran and is therefore very pro aryan (at times may have made even Leni Riefenstahl blush). The text has to be veiwed in this context.
The origins of the karabela style hilt has been postulated as Polish, Persian and European. Oliver Pinchot discusses it briefly in his article The Persian Shamshir and the signature of Assad Allah Below is a copy of portraits of Shaw Abbas, Shah Safi and Shaw Abbas II with what appears to be Karabela style shamshirs. These portrates are circa 1633. He reiterates the theory that Sha Abbas may have encountered this style of hilt during the reconquering of Karbala in 1623.
The possibility of it reaching Poland from Persia (although not specifically stated) may have began with trade missions started in 1601.
Oliver goes on to quote Ostrowski and Bochnak in Note 16 that the hilt style did not appear in Poland until after the Relief of the seige of Vienna in 1683.
Elgood on Pg 15 ofThe Arms and Armour of Arabia Supports the idea that the political ties between Poland and Persia, united to fend of the Ottomans, may have been the source of this hilt style.
Nadolski in Polish Arms-Side Arms on Pg 36 also suggests the Karbala origin.
Yet by the Seige of Vienna in 1683 completely mature forms of the Karabella style hilted saber are seen illustrated below from Fig 150 Odsiecz Wiedenska 1683 . This saber was used in the campaign and has a clearly Ottoman blade (mountings?), suggesting a Ottoman captured piece.
I think at this time the concensus is a Persian origin for the style, but, an Ottoman origin seems to me very possible. I will see if i can find more.

All the best
Jeff

[TVV]

Jeff, I do not mond diverting the thread a bit - after all, this forum's purpose is the enhancement of our knowledge about the things we collect. I wonder whether there is any evidence that the karabela hilt became popular in areas under strong Persian influence, such as Central Asia and Northern India? If the form originated in Persia, it is logical that it should have spread in the regions, where Persian fashions were followed.

[TVV]

I was searching for other info when I accidentally stumbled upon a sword with a karabela hilt and a little different crossguard with down-turned quillons in a book about the weapons of Peter the Great. The description states that the blade is wootz, the hilt is made of tortoise shell, and that the crossguard, scabbard mouth and scabbard chape are marked with the tugra of Sultan Ahmed I (1603-1617). Perhaps another clue pointing towards Ottoman origin.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by TVV

Jeff, I do not mond diverting the thread a bit - after all, this forum's purpose is the enhancement of our knowledge about the things we collect. I wonder whether there is any evidence that the karabela hilt became popular in areas under strong Persian influence, such as Central Asia and Northern India? If the form originated in Persia, it is logical that it should have spread in the regions, where Persian fashions were followed.

Great observation Teodor,

To my knowledge, Central Asia essentially used the classic persian shamshir hilt as well as their own local/regional styles ie Bukhara hilts, shashka like etc.. I will await Ariels observation as he is much more familiar with this region then myself. North India again favored the Tulwar and classic shamshir hilt, animal motifs are also seen but I cannot think of any Indian made Karabella hilts (they must exist, if only for export).
The style was mass produced in Poland, Saxony and Russia as well as the middle east (Nadolski Pg36-37).
I like your epicenter approach.

Best of the Season
Jeff

[ariel]

Let's define the question: Karabela is a saber with a characteristic "eaglehead" handle.

This is, supposedly, the contribution of Shah Abbas ( 1571-1629, reigned since 1588). He first invaded Mesopotamia ( war with the Ottoman Empire) in 1603-1605 and that was the earliest he could see the shrine in Karbala from the door grilles of which he supposedly got the inspiration for the new type of handle ( as per M. Khorasani's book " Arms and Armor from Iran"). The author cites Lebedynsky's description of a portrait of Sultan Selim the Grim (reigned 1512-1520) wearing this type of sword, but persists in claiming that the priority belongs to the Safavids. The earliest example cited by him is the sword attributed to Shah Safi ( 1629-1642). That should be enough already.

Additional evidence in favor of a Turkish origin:
1. Kwasniewicz " Dzieja sczabli w Polsce"
- cites contemporary descriptions of the raid by Kalisk and Poznan principalities against Turks and Wallachs in 1497-1498, with Poles armed with "karabelkas"

- Early 16th century doggerel by Waclaw Potocki
" As long as we carried swords, sabers and kords,
We were not afraid of the Horde.
But as soon as Karabelkas and Czeczugas got to be worn by a Pole,
The plows went idle over Ukraine and Podol"
( Sorry for the translation )
- p.72: pictures of Polish "eagle head sabers with or without yelman, dated to 16-17th centuries.
- description of "eaglehead" Polish swords in the museum collections in London, Netherlands and Sweden ( captured during the Swedish "deluge" war in 1655-1660, but, obviously, made earlier)


2. Astvatsaturyan : "Turkish Weapons"
- cites and shows ( p.90) drawings of an" eaglehead" sword from the book by De Marsilli ( real spelling was, likely, different, but the book was published in Russian in St. Petersbourg, 1737) " Military state of the Ottoman Empire with its ascendancy and decline"
_ presents photographs of several Ottoman "eaglehead" swords from the collection of the State Historical Museum in Moscow, bearing tugras of Ahmed II ( 1691-1695) and his successors till 1730.

3. "Hongaarse Wapenpraal"

_ p.38: picture of a Hungarian saber with eaglehead handle dated to the beginning of 17th cen.

4.Wagner " Swords and Daggers"
- pp. 96-97: Turkish and Polish Karabelas with "eaglehead" handles dated 17th cen from "MM's" collection

5."Ubojite Ostrice" ( collection from Croatian museums)

- p.70: Hungarian "eaglehead " Karabela 17th cen

Thus, it is quite obvious that the "eaglehead" Karabela handle was known in Eastern Europe and Turkey well before the supposed visit of Shah Abbas to Karbala. Nothing to do with Persia.
Well, at least, Safavid Persia invented... Nanotechnology!
http://www.persianmirror.com/Article...ubCategory=115