Nice old Ilocano knife

Ian · 16th March 2005, 05:50 PM

This one looks early 20th C. Missing some of the brass inlays on the hilt, but otherwise in good shape. Interesting wooden sheath.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517563408

Rick · 16th March 2005, 09:51 PM

Hi Ian ,

Do you think this is pre WW2 or later ; agreed it's nice work !

Here is a Spanish dagger which I suspect to be Philippine from observing the symbols on the blade . Other than the symbols I wouldn't know where to place it .

Perhaps you or Marc could comment .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...516009702&rd=1

LabanTayo · 16th March 2005, 11:42 PM

rick,
looks Katipunan. Philippines.
Maybe the other Philippine weapons guys could chime in.

Rick · 16th March 2005, 11:54 PM

Hi Shelley ,
Other than the symbols that both you and I take for Katipunan this dagger looks very un-Philippine .
The castings on the scabbard throat really threw me off ; perhaps it is not original to the dagger ; though as I said before the dagger hilt form is for me confusing .

Battara · 16th March 2005, 11:57 PM

Looks more Spanish in origin. Perhaps one got it in trade or bought it and placed the Katipunan symbol on it. I will bring a Katipunan piece to Baltimore.

Rick · 17th March 2005, 12:01 AM

I'll miss seeing you and the rest of the gang there Jose .

Marc · 17th March 2005, 12:54 AM

I don't see anything particularly Spanish on it, to be sincere. I would also have said Katipunan.
On the other hand, knives tend to lend themselves to a really great deal of variety (steak knives of the world, anyone?), so general shape only take me so far, and I have to say I'm relying on the symbol for the katipunan attribution. The shape is more European than Philippino, sure, but not particularly Spanish, at least as far as I can say.
Katipunan regalia tend to favour europeized shapes, though, at least regarding daggers. Could we have a specific typology, here? This is a bit out of my field, wish I could contribute more...

Battara · 17th March 2005, 01:11 AM

Part of the problem is that the Katipunan groups used whatever they could get their hands on, like, old European blades, locally made ones, etc. Different motifs were used and even types of hilts depending upon the time period, say I think fist hilts going back to the 1870s for example. Only on later Katipunan pieces did the triangle and face of the sun find usage since it became the official symbol of the PI government under Aguinaldo from 1898-1901.

After Baltimore, I may post pictures of the Katipunan pieces (or one of them) I have. The one I will post is Ilokano.

Ferguson · 17th March 2005, 01:40 AM

Doesn't the PI on the guard mean anything?

I tried to ask the seller about shipping costs to the US, and he was pretty rude. So I didn't bid.

I really like this piece.

Steve

Rick · 17th March 2005, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Doesn't the PI on the guard mean anything?

I tried to ask the seller about shipping costs to the US, and he was pretty rude. So I didn't bid.

I really like this piece.

Steve

Philippine Islands ?

Ferguson · 17th March 2005, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Philippine Islands ?

That's what I figured.

Steve

Ian · 17th March 2005, 03:08 AM

Rick:

I have to agree with Mark. I don't see much to indicate a Spanish origin. The finely milled brass at either end of the wooden handle strikes me as more of a French or Italian trait. The sheath also looks French or thereabouts (Britain, Germany). The inscribed design, as noted already, is very suggestive of Katipunan influence. If we use Battara's dating, the knife likely would have been inscribed with those symbols around 1900, but the knife itself could be older -- and I think it is. Perhaps mid- to late-19th C.

The Ilocano knife is pre WWII, I think.

Ian.

zelbone · 17th March 2005, 10:16 AM

The dagger most likely belonged to a Katipunan member. It may look European, but most likely was made in the Philippines in the European style. I've seen several Katipunan daggers that you would swear were made in Europe only to notice that the hilts were made of carabao horn, kamagong, or narra.

As for the bolo, it's a nice old example...you know it's old since it has a wooden scabbard. Pre-WWII?...definately.

MABAGANI · 31st March 2005, 07:42 AM

Although much of the early hilt/sword forms are still followed by modern blade makers in the Ilocano regions, I would would not automatically start calling all old Katipunan era blades with the same form, Ilocano...sometimes on the elaborate old pieces with markings and symbols on the blade, hilt and scabbards you can start pinpointing origins.

Conogre · 31st March 2005, 06:01 PM

I have to admit to being somewhat stymied by the non-Philippine reaction of many of you, as whan I saw it my immediate reaction was 1900's era northern Philippines.
Although posted on another thread, this piece seems VERY similar to my rather rudimentry eye.
Mike

16th March 2005, 05:50 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Nice old Ilocano knife This one looks early 20th C. Missing some of the brass inlays on the hilt, but otherwise in good shape. Interesting wooden sheath. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6517563408

17th March 2005, 01:11 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Part of the problem is that the Katipunan groups used whatever they could get their hands on, like, old European blades, locally made ones, etc. Different motifs were used and even types of hilts depending upon the time period, say I think fist hilts going back to the 1870s for example. Only on later Katipunan pieces did the triangle and face of the sun find usage since it became the official symbol of the PI government under Aguinaldo from 1898-1901. After Baltimore, I may post pictures of the Katipunan pieces (or one of them) I have. The one I will post is Ilokano. Last edited by Battara; 17th March 2005 at 01:21 AM.

17th March 2005, 03:08 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Interesting knife, Rick ... Rick: I have to agree with Mark. I don't see much to indicate a Spanish origin. The finely milled brass at either end of the wooden handle strikes me as more of a French or Italian trait. The sheath also looks French or thereabouts (Britain, Germany). The inscribed design, as noted already, is very suggestive of Katipunan influence. If we use Battara's dating, the knife likely would have been inscribed with those symbols around 1900, but the knife itself could be older -- and I think it is. Perhaps mid- to late-19th C. The Ilocano knife is pre WWII, I think. Ian.

31st March 2005, 06:01 PM	#15
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I have to admit to being somewhat stymied by the non-Philippine reaction of many of you, as whan I saw it my immediate reaction was 1900's era northern Philippines. Although posted on another thread, this piece seems VERY similar to my rather rudimentry eye. Mike Attached Images

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16th March 2005, 09:51 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Ian , Do you think this is pre WW2 or later ; agreed it's nice work ! Here is a Spanish dagger which I suspect to be Philippine from observing the symbols on the blade . Other than the symbols I wouldn't know where to place it . Perhaps you or Marc could comment . http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...516009702&rd=1

16th March 2005, 11:42 PM	#3
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	rick, looks Katipunan. Philippines. Maybe the other Philippine weapons guys could chime in.

16th March 2005, 11:54 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Shelley , Other than the symbols that both you and I take for Katipunan this dagger looks very un-Philippine . The castings on the scabbard throat really threw me off ; perhaps it is not original to the dagger ; though as I said before the dagger hilt form is for me confusing .

16th March 2005, 11:57 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Looks more Spanish in origin. Perhaps one got it in trade or bought it and placed the Katipunan symbol on it. I will bring a Katipunan piece to Baltimore.

17th March 2005, 12:01 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'll miss seeing you and the rest of the gang there Jose .

17th March 2005, 12:54 AM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I don't see anything particularly Spanish on it, to be sincere. I would also have said Katipunan. On the other hand, knives tend to lend themselves to a really great deal of variety (steak knives of the world, anyone?), so general shape only take me so far, and I have to say I'm relying on the symbol for the katipunan attribution. The shape is more European than Philippino, sure, but not particularly Spanish, at least as far as I can say. Katipunan regalia tend to favour europeized shapes, though, at least regarding daggers. Could we have a specific typology, here? This is a bit out of my field, wish I could contribute more...

17th March 2005, 01:40 AM	#9
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Doesn't the PI on the guard mean anything? I tried to ask the seller about shipping costs to the US, and he was pretty rude. So I didn't bid. I really like this piece. Steve

17th March 2005, 10:16 AM	#13
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	The dagger most likely belonged to a Katipunan member. It may look European, but most likely was made in the Philippines in the European style. I've seen several Katipunan daggers that you would swear were made in Europe only to notice that the hilts were made of carabao horn, kamagong, or narra. As for the bolo, it's a nice old example...you know it's old since it has a wooden scabbard. Pre-WWII?...definately.

31st March 2005, 07:42 AM	#14
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Although much of the early hilt/sword forms are still followed by modern blade makers in the Ilocano regions, I would would not automatically start calling all old Katipunan era blades with the same form, Ilocano...sometimes on the elaborate old pieces with markings and symbols on the blade, hilt and scabbards you can start pinpointing origins.