"regular" VOC sword or ethnograpical object?

Mytribalworld · 12th October 2007, 05:02 PM

Was a little suprised when I got this sword this week.
According to the seller it came probably from Indonesia.
The blade seems to have old VOC marks.only the last numbers are a little visable and it seems like 77.
The top of the handle is decorated with a kind of beaver-marmoth or anything like that? looks also a little Tlingit....
The scabbard is from zinc.
Hope anyone can help me with this.....

Tim Simmons · 12th October 2007, 07:07 PM

To me it looks like a Leopard and a very Nice West African weapon with European blade. Leopards make me think of Benin in particular. I will try and show my thinking.

Tim Simmons · 12th October 2007, 07:21 PM

Leopard stool from Ivory Coast.

Dajak · 12th October 2007, 08:05 PM

Real VOC swords hard to get and very expensive today

Ben

asomotif · 16th October 2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Real VOC swords hard to get and very expensive today

Please read Ben

It is clear that it is a real VOC sword and nobody asked about the price.

The blade has VOC markings (in fact the Chambre of Amsterdam)
The VOC was divided in separate department (kamer) and well known ones are Amsterdam / Rotterdam and Hoorn.

The hilt seems european to me.
maybe it has been used as a hunting sword/side arm ?

Tim Simmons · 16th October 2007, 06:29 PM

The Dutch, Danes, British, French and others all supplied blades exstensively throughout the West African trade coast. To aid thier interests using African conflict and internal politics. I can post more Leopard pics if you need them.

Dajak · 16th October 2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Please read Ben

It is clear that it is a real VOC sword and nobody asked about the price.

The blade has VOC markings (in fact the Chambre of Amsterdam)
The VOC was divided in separate department (kamer) and well known ones are Amsterdam / Rotterdam and Hoorn.

The hilt seems european to me.
maybe it has been used as a hunting sword/side arm ?

No way this is an real voc sword .
It is an sword that has making VOC that s the difference
Willem I am telling buying an real old VOC sword is like a win in the lottery .
But I see you take it up for your friend you always bidding on his stuff but never get it .
I have no problem with that.

Ben

Tim Simmons · 16th October 2007, 07:50 PM

If you are dissapointed with this piece, look no further. What a splendid handle!!!

Mytribalworld · 16th October 2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

No way this is an real voc sword .
It is an sword that has making VOC that s the difference
Willem I am telling buying an real old VOC sword is like a win in the lottery .
But I see you take it up for your friend you always bidding on his stuff but never get it .
I have no problem with that.

Ben

Sorry Ben but this behavior goes really too far in my opinion.
It seems that you can't act on this forum without getting too personal.
My pencil is sharper than my swords my reading is better than ever course I'm also able to read " between the lines".
If we win on ebay we pay and also Willem has too.That why our feedback is that good.Willem is a besides a good friend of mine also a collector and also a paying customer.Maybe you should learn at least some of that behaviour.
I really was interested in this forum but as long as you are on it I don"t take it for serious.Forumleader will have a PM.

Arjan

David · 16th October 2007, 11:31 PM

Ben, Your last remark seems totally unnecessary and off topic. Let's stick to the sword at hand. What you think about other auctions is unimportant to this thread and personal attacks are against forum policy.

Dajak · 17th October 2007, 04:42 AM

I send you an pm

Ben

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2007, 05:55 AM

This is an interesting sword that seems in line with quite modern weapons seen in West Africa, as has been noted. Some have standard type stirrup hilts of European military form, while this, as has been mentioned seems in line with many European hunting hangers.
I think Tim has a very good suggestion on the zoomorphic hilt representing the leopard. It seems that the leopard totem was significant in secret societies as well as other cultural symbolism as he has mentioned.
The multinational trade that prevailed on the west coast of Africa during the 18th century diffused many weapons into these regions and may account for what appears to be an 18th c. blade here.

I agree that it is extremely rare to find a VOC marked blade, as in my collecting days I tried for many years unsuccessfully to find one! It seems they did turn up occasionally on Sinhalese kastanes (for some reason the year 1768 seems predominant on those examples).

I am curious about the note about the markings on this blade which note the markings apply to the Amsterdam department of VOC. I was not aware that the different cities used different markings.....is there any way to know the differences.....just in case any of us might get lucky enough to find one of these rare blades?

I would really appreciate knowing more on this and hope those of you with keen insight into this seldom discussed topic might comment.

Mytribalworld · 17th October 2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is an interesting sword that seems in line with quite modern weapons seen in West Africa, as has been noted. Some have standard type stirrup hilts of European military form, while this, as has been mentioned seems in line with many European hunting hangers.
I think Tim has a very good suggestion on the zoomorphic hilt representing the leopard. It seems that the leopard totem was significant in secret societies as well as other cultural symbolism as he has mentioned.
The multinational trade that prevailed on the west coast of Africa during the 18th century diffused many weapons into these regions and may account for what appears to be an 18th c. blade here.

I agree that it is extremely rare to find a VOC marked blade, as in my collecting days I tried for many years unsuccessfully to find one! It seems they did turn up occasionally on Sinhalese kastanes (for some reason the year 1768 seems predominant on those examples).

I am curious about the note about the markings on this blade which note the markings apply to the Amsterdam department of VOC. I was not aware that the different cities used different markings.....is there any way to know the differences.....just in case any of us might get lucky enough to find one of these rare blades?

I would really appreciate knowing more on this and hope those of you with keen insight into this seldom discussed topic might comment.

Hi Jim,

Maybe the reason of the year 1768 on the blades is that in these years the Khanda of Ceylon was in war with the VOC. Its also known that later in these war the Ceylonese where stronger. Maybe they have captured a VOC weapon depot of fresh made blades in those days?

The VOC was set up in 1602 as "United East Indian Company" and from whole Holland people could join in the bussines.Thats why the company choose not the centralise the leadership in one city but to make "chambers" in the most know places.In each chamber was a part of the leadership.
There where 6 chambers:Amsterdam,Rotterdam,Middelburg,Hoorn,Enkh uizen and Delft.The money each member put into the commpany stayed there so all objects wher common property. All tools ,ships, weaponery, earthenware cannons etc where marked with the logo of the VOC and each chamber had his own mark.I found by Googling some marks. In most cases the mark excist in the common VOC logo joined with an "A"in the case of Amsterdam, "H" for Hoorn, "M" for middelburg ( together with the "Z" of the province "Zeeland").
ther where however a lot of variations on the logos what makes it today very difficult to see if the marks are original or not.old marks varies from beautifull well designed marks till likely hastly scratched marks. Also of course many objects like Bone china and also swords are copied.If thats also In this case I don't know.I had the idea that this was a good object.But I'm not an expert in those markings.What I know for sure is that this sword is a very old one.Also I can see that its certainly not a complated piece.

Arjan.

Tim Simmons · 17th October 2007, 08:41 AM

try google "Dutch interests West Africa"

David · 17th October 2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

I send you an pm Ben

...and i sent you one back.

Mark · 17th October 2007, 04:02 PM

Let me make it official: personal squabbles are to be kept OFF the boards. Everyone chill out, or be banned. Clear?

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2007, 03:31 AM

Hi Arjan,
Thank you so much for the detailed response and observations! Its always great to have such focus on historical data that applies directly to the weapons being discussed. With such input, these threads become great resources for those researching these weapons in the future.
Exactly the info I was looking for!

All best regards,
Jim

Mytribalworld · 18th October 2007, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

try google "Dutch interests West Africa"

Hi Tim,

you have any specific site in mind?

more leopard pics should be welcome!

regards,

Arjan.

Tim Simmons · 18th October 2007, 08:27 PM

No specific site. Just to show how active the Dutch were in early 19th century West Africa yet she never took full colonial control as the French, British and Germans did.

Besides often secret leopard cults of which some could be the dirty hand of the state. The leopard is also a symbol of authority. The leopard on your sword handle is wonderfully compact and so monumental for such a small carving. Here is another stool, Bamileke which is not the trade coast but still shows the same style of expression.

Dajak · 20th October 2007, 06:59 AM

Hi Tim don't forget that south African languae is like old Dutch and that Kaap de goede Hoop was long in Dutch hands so I think we stayed long enough there that they do talk today or languae .
It is not to be proud off but we also the first that bring the slave s to America in the KIT museum in amsterdam is still the original books from the period that tells how much slave s they take on board off the ship and how many survived the trip and how much they make .
So I think the Dutch had an big influence in the South part off Africa .

The Dutch written history did start in 1652 at that moment did Jan van Riebeeck make an harbourstation at Kaap the Goede Hoop (Dutch name) he was working for the VOC
the part with Dutch kolonisten did get slowy bigger in the 17 and 18 century till east till the Visrivier .
In 1795 the brittisch take control give it back in 1803 .
And take it over again in 1806Then ther was some trouble about compensation stopping the slavery and Dutch kolonisten (also german ) known as Boeren did get away in the years 1830-1840 .
They make different state s like the Oranjevrijstaat and Transvaal.

Ben

12th October 2007, 05:02 PM	#1
Mytribalworld Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	"regular" VOC sword or ethnograpical object? Was a little suprised when I got this sword this week. According to the seller it came probably from Indonesia. The blade seems to have old VOC marks.only the last numbers are a little visable and it seems like 77. The top of the handle is decorated with a kind of beaver-marmoth or anything like that? looks also a little Tlingit.... The scabbard is from zinc. Hope anyone can help me with this..... Attached Images

17th October 2007, 04:02 PM	#16
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Fair warning Let me make it official: personal squabbles are to be kept OFF the boards. Everyone chill out, or be banned. Clear? Mark Vikingsword Staff

18th October 2007, 08:27 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	No specific site. Just to show how active the Dutch were in early 19th century West Africa yet she never took full colonial control as the French, British and Germans did. Besides often secret leopard cults of which some could be the dirty hand of the state. The leopard is also a symbol of authority. The leopard on your sword handle is wonderfully compact and so monumental for such a small carving. Here is another stool, Bamileke which is not the trade coast but still shows the same style of expression. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 18th October 2007 at 09:18 PM.

20th October 2007, 06:59 AM	#20
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Tim don't forget that south African languae is like old Dutch and that Kaap de goede Hoop was long in Dutch hands so I think we stayed long enough there that they do talk today or languae . It is not to be proud off but we also the first that bring the slave s to America in the KIT museum in amsterdam is still the original books from the period that tells how much slave s they take on board off the ship and how many survived the trip and how much they make . So I think the Dutch had an big influence in the South part off Africa . The Dutch written history did start in 1652 at that moment did Jan van Riebeeck make an harbourstation at Kaap the Goede Hoop (Dutch name) he was working for the VOC the part with Dutch kolonisten did get slowy bigger in the 17 and 18 century till east till the Visrivier . In 1795 the brittisch take control give it back in 1803 . And take it over again in 1806Then ther was some trouble about compensation stopping the slavery and Dutch kolonisten (also german ) known as Boeren did get away in the years 1830-1840 . They make different state s like the Oranjevrijstaat and Transvaal. Ben Last edited by Dajak; 20th October 2007 at 07:13 AM.

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12th October 2007, 07:07 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	To me it looks like a Leopard and a very Nice West African weapon with European blade. Leopards make me think of Benin in particular. I will try and show my thinking.

12th October 2007, 07:21 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Leopard stool from Ivory Coast.

12th October 2007, 08:05 PM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Real VOC swords hard to get and very expensive today Ben

16th October 2007, 06:29 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The Dutch, Danes, British, French and others all supplied blades exstensively throughout the West African trade coast. To aid thier interests using African conflict and internal politics. I can post more Leopard pics if you need them.

16th October 2007, 07:50 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If you are dissapointed with this piece, look no further. What a splendid handle!!!

16th October 2007, 11:31 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Ben, Your last remark seems totally unnecessary and off topic. Let's stick to the sword at hand. What you think about other auctions is unimportant to this thread and personal attacks are against forum policy.

17th October 2007, 04:42 AM	#11
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I send you an pm Ben

17th October 2007, 05:55 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	This is an interesting sword that seems in line with quite modern weapons seen in West Africa, as has been noted. Some have standard type stirrup hilts of European military form, while this, as has been mentioned seems in line with many European hunting hangers. I think Tim has a very good suggestion on the zoomorphic hilt representing the leopard. It seems that the leopard totem was significant in secret societies as well as other cultural symbolism as he has mentioned. The multinational trade that prevailed on the west coast of Africa during the 18th century diffused many weapons into these regions and may account for what appears to be an 18th c. blade here. I agree that it is extremely rare to find a VOC marked blade, as in my collecting days I tried for many years unsuccessfully to find one! It seems they did turn up occasionally on Sinhalese kastanes (for some reason the year 1768 seems predominant on those examples). I am curious about the note about the markings on this blade which note the markings apply to the Amsterdam department of VOC. I was not aware that the different cities used different markings.....is there any way to know the differences.....just in case any of us might get lucky enough to find one of these rare blades? I would really appreciate knowing more on this and hope those of you with keen insight into this seldom discussed topic might comment.

17th October 2007, 08:41 AM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	try google "Dutch interests West Africa"

18th October 2007, 03:31 AM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Arjan, Thank you so much for the detailed response and observations! Its always great to have such focus on historical data that applies directly to the weapons being discussed. With such input, these threads become great resources for those researching these weapons in the future. Exactly the info I was looking for! All best regards, Jim