Island made sword

[scratch]

A fond Hello to all,
Thank you for the time and knowledge shared on this forum. As a novice, what I manage to understand is interesting and has led me to begin to appreciate objects from all over the world I have a very small kukri collection plus a few others. I bought this sword as an Island made/Soldier made WWII japanese style sword. I was told it did not have a tempered edge. I thought it may have been tempered so "cleaned" blade and I found to my untrained eye what looks to be a hardened edge. The spine is quite rough, being flat at the tip, raised in the middle and flatish near the hilt. The blade has slight distal taper towards tip. It is apprx 8mm thick through most of length of blade, 31 inch overall, 22 3/4 inch blade, Weight 29 oz. I apologize for asking for an ID on this but I was told that it was a poor quality blacksmith made piece of rubbish. I think it shows some degree of craft. All help and clarification as to how, when and by who this sword was made would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and patience.

Best Regards

Daniel

[scratch]

Hello All,
Is this not the appropiate forum for this blade?
This is my first post, due to the lack of welcome or replies I can only assume so.

Sincerely

Daniel

[Henk]

Daniel,

This should be the forum for this blade.

Let me be the first to welcome you on the forum.

Thusfar nobody reacted on this blade because I think every knowledgeable member is searching in his or her books.

For me it is rather hard to comment this blade. My first impression is the blade of a samurai sword. So a japanese blade. And that's it for me.
Do you only have the blade or do you have a dress for it? When dressed, a blade probably can tell more because this blade has no marks or stamps to identify.

[scratch]

Thank you for the welcome Henk
Sorry if I jumped the gun but as this is one of the friendly forums I thought I must have caused offence somehow. My sincere apologies for my misinterpretation
Part of me wanted to think that this blade is japanese but the advice I received, including handling 2 old pieces, they were very light and meticulously finished, led me to believe it was as suggested an island made sword/jeep spring sword.
I have the fittings but thought they might bias the opinion on blade, I will be happy to take pics of them, they may not be original if this is a japanese blade.
I would be flabbergasted and excited if this proves to be the case! In different lights the steel is interesting.
Thank you for the communication

Kind regards

Daniel

[Bill M]

It is certainly a Japanese design blade. Difficult to tell the quality from your pictures and the state of polish, but I would not call it "rubbish." It has a nice curve (sori) and clean lines.

Since the cutting edge is less than 24" it would be classed as a WAKIZASHI.

These blades were commonly carried by the non-warrior class as a main blade or by the Samurai class as a secondary sword to the longer blade Katana (over 24" blade cutting edge)

It appears to have some forging flaws or more probably rust pits. If you could take more detailed pictures of the tip and the spine, it would help in further classification.

I would suggest that you do not clean the tang, but are there any markings on the tang? This is where a maker often added details that would help in classification. These are sometimes difficult to photograph, but can be shown by careful rubbing. If there are Japanese characters there, I can show you how to make copies that are more easily seen than with a photograph.

From the shape of the blade I would guess it was made in the last few hundred years, possibly the last century. I can see a faint line where it looks like it has a hardened edge or hamon. If you want to know more, I suggest you visit this link to a website hosted by one of our members.

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

It would help to see the fittings.

The people on this board would be able to give you much better information.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessageboard/

Welcome to Ethnographic Arms and Armor! Hope that you continue to visit and post.

[Henk]

Daniel,

Bill is right, although japanese blades are not my field of knowledge I also thought to see some details that gave me the idea that this sword isn't rubbish at all. The links Bill gave you can be of a great help. After all that is the forum of the japanese blades.

Bill advised you not to clean the tang. Stronger and that is the knowledge I have about japanese swords, you never ever should touch the tang. The rust on the tang can tell someone who is familair with japanese blades how old the sword is. Even when the tang isn't marked.

And yes, we would love to see the fittings. That makes a sword complete and gives us an idea how the complete piece looks like.
We don't only like to discuss blades, but also we like to lean back in our chair and admire the beauty of a weapon.

[scratch]

G'day all,
Gentlemen, Thank you for giving me some direction regarding this piece
A japanese blade I'm am pleasantly astonished!
Fortunately I left the tang alone, just in case. I can discern no writing. There is a divit on end of tang. Hopefully these photos of the spine will show why I allowed very little hope of a japanese ID, I have kukris that have a much finer spine. The fittings, scabbard will bring little viewing pleasure I think. The blade collar has gone missing at the moment, It is soldered brass. The blade does not align with the carved space of scabbard, the blade is wider and shorter.
Again my apologies for my lack of patience. It was inappropiate of me.
Thanks for the starting point. Hopefully I can share something of a more appropiate nature next time.

Kind regards

Daniel

[Henk]

Daniel,

Looking at the fittings of this sword I think they are the remains of the original fittings and this sword probably is a japanese WWII sword, a shin gunto.

[scratch]

Henk
Thanks for the specification.
That does make sense, as to me this has the feel of something made with durability being the guiding factor. Before purchasing this I located a site "Military swords of imperial japan(gunto)" from a metallurgical perspective it was interesting reading, I thought. On a whim I thought I would test the edge of this blade against a PPK XL(a modern reproduction katana) that i am not particularly fond of, by dragging the edge of older blade over newer blade. The older blade began to cut into the newer blade like a hot knife through butter, literally. I reversed the process, the new blade skated across older blade becoming blunt in the process. This probably says something about both blades.
I would like to commit myself to the belief that this is definitely a japanese blade, whilst I believe it is a good blade, the spine is so crude and rough and I find it hard to reconcile with other features of the blade, perhaps it was a prototype/experimental piece. This is idle conjecture on my part.
Gentlemen, Thanks again for the direction, it is appreciated.

Kind regards

Daniel S

[scratch]

Missing blade collar.

[Andrew]

While this sword may eventually be established as gunto, I must respectfully disagree at this point. The only gunto-like fitting shown is the scabbard hang-ring. The tsuba/guard, for instance, is definitely not gunto, and the three hole tang is not typical gunto, in my limited experience.

Very interesting sword, however. I'd like to hear from Rich about this one.

[Bill M]

I have to agree with Rick that this is not a gunto if we judge by the current fittings.

It also looks like the tsuba (handle) is held on by wood screws. Should be tapered pegs.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I have to agree with Rick that this is not a gunto if we judge by the current fittings.

Rick?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Rick?

PS! (that means "OOPS with embaressed faces)

Sorry! I agree with Andrew -- TWICE!

[spiral]

looks a clumsy one to me, blade has no distal taper for starters.

It isnt Japanese even at the very lowest tourist level I am sure.


The Jap. Army took swordmiths with them during world war 2 for repair, modifying etc. , it realy doesnt look remotly like thier work though, by any stretch of imagination.

Its as genuine Japanese as a $1 ebay piece from Shanghai.


Spiral

[scratch]

Perhaps I have used the term distal taper incorrectly? If so it was unintentional. I does narrow over last 19cm towards tip by 1mm apprx. i used calipers to establish this. This is what I meant by"slight distal taper towards tip" My apologies if i have caused confusion. I have done my best to present this object as honestly and clearly as I can.

Dan

[scratch]

A couple more shots.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by spiral

looks a clumsy one to me, blade has no distal taper for starters.

It isnt Japanese even at the very lowest tourist level I am sure.


The Jap. Army took swordmiths with them during world war 2 for repair, modifying etc. , it realy doesnt look remotly like thier work though, by any stretch of imagination.

Its as genuine Japanese as a $1 ebay piece from Shanghai.


Spiral

Hi Jonathon,

Don't hold back now!

I think that we were all just trying to be polite to a new forum member, but you have laid the correct information bluntly on the line.



Dan,
Stick around, you will learn a lot here.
Wish we had better news about your sword.

[scratch]

Thank you Spiral, Thank you Bill for putting me out of my misery. This is the first item I bought about a year ago and its been niggling me since. I then rediscovered kukris, thank goodness!
Johnathon, I must respectfully oppose your designation as a $1 shanghai ebay sword. Clumbsy yes, illformed yes, ugly yes. modern chinese construction, not from where I stand.
Structurally I feel this is a very strong piece of steel, It can absorb a great deal of stress and return true. Thank you for difinitively telling what it is not. I still feel it has some redeeming qualities. I wonder If bored Australian engineers made this at the end of WWII for sale to the better paid American soldiers.Perhaps they copied from a genuine piece, which could explain its crude but robust nature. I was hoping it was of a more tribal nature. Thanks again for ending my confusion The next items I'm about to post are of chinese origin I believe, more bad news on the way I expect

Kind regards to All

Daniel

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by scratch

Thank you Spiral, Thank you Bill for putting me out of my misery. This is the first item I bought about a year ago and its been niggling me since. I then rediscovered kukris, thank goodness!
Johnathon, I must respectfully oppose your designation as a $1 shanghai ebay sword. Clumbsy yes, illformed yes, ugly yes. modern chinese construction, not from where I stand.
Structurally I feel this is a very strong piece of steel, It can absorb a great deal of stress and return true. Thank you for difinitively telling what it is not. I still feel it has some redeeming qualities. I wonder If bored Australian engineers made this at the end of WWII for sale to the better paid American soldiers.Perhaps they copied from a genuine piece, which could explain its crude but robust nature. I was hoping it was of a more tribal nature. Thanks again for ending my confusion The next items I'm about to post are of chinese origin I believe, more bad news on the way I expect

Kind regards to All

Daniel

Dan,

We all have made mistakes in our collecting! We still do, sometimes. You should see some of the Chinese "Emperor General Ming Dynasty" swords I bought a few years ago.

Just keep on reading the posts here. Get to know some people who collect in the areas you like. Send them private messages.

Buy and read books.

Get to know the prices weapons bring. For instance, it is unlikely you will find a good Chinese or Japanese sword for under a thousand dollars. If you do, it will be because you have studied and recognize the rare "sleeper."

There are a lot of clever sellers on eBay. People with hugely inflated shipping charges. People who list items wrong intentionally so that they appear to be "sleepers," hoping to start a bidding frenzy from the sleeper hunters!

My strong suggestion is to read posts here. Use the "Search" Function to find information and people in areas you like. Buy books and READ them!

Books Can be expensive, but much less than mistakes you may otherwise make.

There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum, however we all make mistakes. Don't necessarily take what you read here as absolute truth. We are ALL learning.

There are some world-class experts here. For instance, I consider Jonathon (Spiral) to be one of the top people in Khukuris. You mentioned that you like them. He has an outstanding collection and a powerful understanding of these marvelous weapon/tools. Do understand that when you ask him a question, you will get a blunt and accurate opinion.

Welcome to the Forum. Hope that you have a good time here. I certainly do!

[spiral]

Originally Posted by scratch

Johnathon, I must respectfully oppose your designation as a $1 shanghai ebay sword. Clumbsy yes, illformed yes, ugly yes. modern chinese construction, not from where I stand.
Structurally I feel this is a very strong piece of steel, It can absorb a great deal of stress and return true. Thank you for difinitively telling what it is not.

Well its in your hands Dan, I am just looking at the photos, so you can see who it feels in the hand etc. that I cant. I wasnt suggesting it was from Shanghai via ebay just that as a Japanese" sword its genuiness was at the same level. As you say its a stronger piece.

1mm distal taper is not far from no distal taper im my book.

I dont have any idea who made it, a lost tribe or OZi bored soldiers.

The Japanese sword represented more than a weapon, its primary use in the WW2 Army was as a emblem of rank, honour & spirit.

Hi Bill, mmm yes guess I am blunt sometimes, most days I am ansewaring email questians about kukri etc so over time, I guess , I have reached the stage where I do just say my reactions to a piece.

Perhaps I shouldnt do that on forums, Ill think about that one...

Dan does know me already though.


Spiral

[scratch]

Hello all,
Sorry for resurrecting this dreadful creature, however after a vinegar etch this was the result. I am interested in learning what construction method was used to make this, laminated? I have no idea and would be appreciative of any help received

Kind regards,

Dan

[RSWORD]

It would appear that this blade is laminated. I have seen similar "patterns" on barong blades from the Philippines. The real open pattern, I believe, is from minimal folding of the blade.

[josh stout]

This is far from my area of knowledge, but is there a chance this could be a Korean piece? My minimal understanding of Japanese blades is that the tang is tilted at an angle to the blade, while Korean pieces will have a tang that follows the blade contour. Also, the tip is a much more common shape in Korean swords than in Japanese swords which usually show separate faceting. I would suggest a close look at the Korean stuff in "History of Steel" for more similarities.

Vietnamese sabers also copied the Japanese look, and had crude Japanese style guards like the one shown, but the hilt would be completely different, so I will stick with my Korean guess.
Josh

[Ferguson]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

It would appear that this blade is laminated. I have seen similar "patterns" on barong blades from the Philippines. The real open pattern, I believe, is from minimal folding of the blade.

Rick, you're the man when it comes to wootz and pattern welded steel. Let me throw out another possibility. My first time etching a blade looked like that. I didn't degrease it properly and the vinegar beaded up. Could that be what we're seeing? I found that cleaning the blade with acetone or alcohol prior to etching, and adding a drop of dishwashing liquid to the vinegar caused the vinegar to wet the blade better.

I could be way off though, and that could be the actual pattern in the steel.

Steve

[kai]

Hello Dan,

I'm with Steve here and also believe that this pattern might be a staining artifact...

Degreasing is paramount and being generous with the etchant (or submersing the whole blade) also helps to reveal real patterns.

Regards,
Kai

[TVV]

I have seen this effect as well, and interestingly enough, it was on a barong blade. I etched the blade a few times, and each time a got a pattern that looked like this, but always in a different way, which was enough to convince that I was not etching properly. My initial reaction when I saw the pictures was the same as Steve's, but I just wanted to see what other members had to say.
Regards,
Teodor

[RSWORD]

You guys bring up a good point and this could be what we are seeing especially given the length of blade. However, in my experience, a blade with an active pattern usually "pops" fairly quickly and it is the blades with minimal folding that need much more coaxing to bring out what pattern, if any, is there. Steve, your suggestions are a great way to make sure it is being soaked properly. Another beneficial method would be to do multiple vinegar soaks and in between after a good rinse and wipe off to give the blade a good once over with a very fine grit paper, and then repeat process over.

[scratch]

Hello Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and collections
I did degrease this piece with white spirits, however I was called away for about 30 mins during etching process so it is possible that the etch is dodgy. I have tried to remove etch with vigorous rubbing with 0000 wool, I can't remove it. Should I use 2000 grit paper and etch again? I have included pics of an earlier etch using lime juice. Perhaps I should consign this to the unkown sword category? I do believe that this item is not monosteel but am open to correction. It is not of Japanese origin as has been established earlier. Thank you again for taking the time to express your thoughts on a piece that has little value on this forum

Kind regards

Dan

[josh stout]

That one looks better. I still see some etching artifacts though. I like to take 4000 grit paper to a blade after etching. It gets rid of stains quickly but leaves an understated pattern behind.
Josh