Short bladed tulwar

Lew · 19th August 2007, 06:12 PM

Hi All

I would like to have some opinions on the possible uses of this short bladed tulwar? Blade length is about 22" long. Any theories would be appreciated.

Lew

Flavio · 19th August 2007, 06:25 PM

Hi Lew,

I think that this particular kind of tulwar is a gift for someone and if I read well on the disc pommel there is a write .... SEND TO FLAVIO

Very nice, congrats

Henk · 19th August 2007, 06:32 PM

Hi Lew,

Maybe it was made for a boy. That might explain why it is a short one.

Flavio, you made a big mistake in your translation. It says "send to Henk asap" The word "Flavio" is not present on the entire piece.

Congrats Lew, it is a beauty.

Lew · 19th August 2007, 06:42 PM

Flavio that was an amazing translation

Didn't know it was written in Italian?

Henk the hilt is full sized my big hand fits rather nicely. I think this is an adult sword. Either a court sword or some type of palace sword to be used in tight spaces.

Lew

katana · 19th August 2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Henk the hilt is full sized my big hand fits rather nicely. I think this is an adult sword. Either a court sword or some type of palace sword to be used in tight spaces.

Lew

I agree Lew, seems the most likely or perhaps for an Indian warrior with extraordinary long arms

Regards David

ariel · 19th August 2007, 08:06 PM

Could it be an equivalent of "nimcha"? SW India had a large Arab-related populations. Perhaps, it is not a " boy toy" or a ceremonial gift but rather just a short sword similar in its function to the naval cutlass.

Tim Simmons · 19th August 2007, 08:09 PM

Boy toys have more curves and often smell nice. A close up of the fuller end and sword tip would be helpful.

Lew · 20th August 2007, 12:01 AM

Here is a close up of tip and koftgari on the spine. Ham was able to translate it and it reads "THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR".

Lew

Ian · 20th August 2007, 01:37 AM

Lew:

The blade looks as though it has been shortened to me. The broad fuller runs right through the tip area. Perhaps an old favorite that broke and someone had it reworked (albeit a very good reshaping).

Ian.

Lew · 20th August 2007, 01:59 AM

Ian

I thought the same thing but the axis of the tip would be all wrong if you added 8-10 inches. The fuller runs lower than the tip. I also checked the hardened edge and it wraps up and around the the top of the tip. So if it were shortened it would have to have been reheat treated to have that effect at the tip.

Lew

CharlesS · 20th August 2007, 03:04 AM

I think it is simply a secondary side arm, and a darn nice one.

Tim Simmons · 20th August 2007, 10:18 AM

I agree with Ian and Charles. I think it may have been altered purposely and expertly creating a heavy cutting weapon rather like a barong. To me it looks like it handles very nicely. Very nice.

katana · 20th August 2007, 05:54 PM

Hi Lew
whereabouts is the 'point of balance'....it may help to determine whether this sword was shortened or made that size

BBJW · 20th August 2007, 06:56 PM

IMHO the blade was broken at some point and redone. I have some European swords in my collection that either been period shortened or broken and then saw naval usage. This piece was obviously too nice to be discarded or given to a child.

bbjw

ham · 20th August 2007, 07:14 PM

CharlesS is correct, this is a secondary weapon and there is nothing unusual about its size seen in that context. Such swords are not cavalry weapons-- rather, they are used for close foot-fighting of the sort in which a long blade would be a liability rather than a benefit-- a good parallel would be the wakizashi.
Its proportions and form in no way suggest that it has been shortened, actually it is quite a pleasing piece of work.

Ham

Henk · 20th August 2007, 08:18 PM

I agree with Ian and bbjw. If i look at the close up of the tip it says to me that the sword was shortened. The fuller ends very close to the tip like something is missing. Unfortunately we cann't see the sword in live.
Maybe I'm mistaken and Ham has a great knowledge of these type of weapons.

Fact is that we all agree that it is a beautiful sword.

Lew · 20th August 2007, 11:40 PM

If this was a shortened sword than the fuller's placement would be higher up at tip it would not be running through the bottom third of the blade at that point which seems to be the center axis of the blade. If you were to extend the tip 8-10 inches you would have the fuller in the center of that section of the tip and it would have a much wider cross section. The sword below has the same swedge cut into the spine and if it were to be shortened you would loose that cut out at the far end of the blade.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 21st August 2007, 07:20 PM

I agree completely with Ham's assessment supporting Charles observation.This short tulwar does indeed appear a secondary type weapon intended as Ham notes, for close in fighting.

It is interesting to note that describing noticeably short swords as childs swords is a common assumption. We do know of course that such swords did indeed exist, but the best guage is often to evaluate the size of the hilt, as has been noted here.

The use of shorter swords for close combat is best seen in Ham's excellent comparison noting the wakizashi, which comprised the intermediate of the suite of swords carried by the Samurai. In China, many of the forms of dao are found with extremely short blades, which are considered to have been mounted for in close combat or use in the close confines in allies and narrow streets of cities of the time.
It seems that there are numerous instances of cross influence between the weapons of China and India.While comparison between this example of short bladed tulwar and the similarly short bladed dao does not suggest any direct connection, it does seem worthy of note.

Best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 21st August 2007, 07:38 PM

the deadliest sword of the European area was the Roman gladius and it's associated weapons system, designed for close combat by infantry who were superbly trained in supporting each other, they easily beat the gauls and celts with their longer weapons who fought as individual warriors rather than as soldiers. in gaul alone julius caesar killed over a million or two in a few years, (tho not exclusively with the gladius). as the empire degenerated and the legions were a shadow of themselves, the longer cavalry spatha became the weapon of choice, most of the 'legionaries' were barbarian mercs who preferred them. in it's setting (close foot combat with a shield & armour) as part of it's weapons system, the gladius was and probably still is unequalled. it does not surprise me that other cultures found a similar solution to similar situations.

Lew · 22nd August 2007, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Lew
whereabouts is the 'point of balance'....it may help to determine whether this sword was shortened or made that size

4.5 inches foward of the cross guard.

Lew

Fayaz94 · 25th April 2019, 07:23 PM

Hi Lew,

I know what that sword is as I practice an Indian battlefield art called shastar vidiya.
It's a sword for the God styles of fighting - 8 armed Goddess (asthbuja Deva chandika).
I've actually been looking for one like that for ages. The Arabic inscription on the spine probably indicates it was made by a Muslim sword smith or for someone of that faith despite it being a sword based off Indian mythology.
If you still possess the sword would you be willing to sell? As I have been seeking such an item for at least 3 years to train with. Let me know, many thanks.

Fayaz94 · 25th April 2019, 07:27 PM

It's called a Kathi sword.

kai · 25th April 2019, 09:21 PM

Welcome to the forum!

Lew died several years ago and all pieces of his collection were sold.

Here's the page of this sword: http://www.vikingsword.com/lew/w0090/w0090.html

If you're lucky, a forumite obtained this sword and may contact you if willing to pass it on...

Regards,
Kai

19th August 2007, 06:12 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Short bladed tulwar Hi All I would like to have some opinions on the possible uses of this short bladed tulwar? Blade length is about 22" long. Any theories would be appreciated. Lew Attached Images

20th August 2007, 12:01 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is a close up of tip and koftgari on the spine. Ham was able to translate it and it reads "THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR". Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 20th August 2007 at 12:16 AM.

20th August 2007, 01:59 AM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ian I thought the same thing but the axis of the tip would be all wrong if you added 8-10 inches. The fuller runs lower than the tip. I also checked the hardened edge and it wraps up and around the the top of the tip. So if it were shortened it would have to have been reheat treated to have that effect at the tip. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 20th August 2007 at 02:35 AM.

20th August 2007, 06:56 PM	#14
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Broken IMHO the blade was broken at some point and redone. I have some European swords in my collection that either been period shortened or broken and then saw naval usage. This piece was obviously too nice to be discarded or given to a child. bbjw

20th August 2007, 11:40 PM	#17
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	If this was a shortened sword than the fuller's placement would be higher up at tip it would not be running through the bottom third of the blade at that point which seems to be the center axis of the blade. If you were to extend the tip 8-10 inches you would have the fuller in the center of that section of the tip and it would have a much wider cross section. The sword below has the same swedge cut into the spine and if it were to be shortened you would loose that cut out at the far end of the blade. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 21st August 2007 at 12:06 AM.

19th August 2007, 06:25 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Lew, I think that this particular kind of tulwar is a gift for someone and if I read well on the disc pommel there is a write .... SEND TO FLAVIO Very nice, congrats

19th August 2007, 06:32 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi Lew, Maybe it was made for a boy. That might explain why it is a short one. Flavio, you made a big mistake in your translation. It says "send to Henk asap" The word "Flavio" is not present on the entire piece. Congrats Lew, it is a beauty.

19th August 2007, 06:42 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Flavio that was an amazing translation Didn't know it was written in Italian? Henk the hilt is full sized my big hand fits rather nicely. I think this is an adult sword. Either a court sword or some type of palace sword to be used in tight spaces. Lew

19th August 2007, 08:06 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Could it be an equivalent of "nimcha"? SW India had a large Arab-related populations. Perhaps, it is not a " boy toy" or a ceremonial gift but rather just a short sword similar in its function to the naval cutlass.

19th August 2007, 08:09 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Boy toys have more curves and often smell nice. A close up of the fuller end and sword tip would be helpful.

20th August 2007, 01:37 AM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	Lew: The blade looks as though it has been shortened to me. The broad fuller runs right through the tip area. Perhaps an old favorite that broke and someone had it reworked (albeit a very good reshaping). Ian.

20th August 2007, 03:04 AM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I think it is simply a secondary side arm, and a darn nice one.

20th August 2007, 10:18 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I agree with Ian and Charles. I think it may have been altered purposely and expertly creating a heavy cutting weapon rather like a barong. To me it looks like it handles very nicely. Very nice.

20th August 2007, 05:54 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Lew whereabouts is the 'point of balance'....it may help to determine whether this sword was shortened or made that size

20th August 2007, 07:14 PM	#15
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	CharlesS is correct, this is a secondary weapon and there is nothing unusual about its size seen in that context. Such swords are not cavalry weapons-- rather, they are used for close foot-fighting of the sort in which a long blade would be a liability rather than a benefit-- a good parallel would be the wakizashi. Its proportions and form in no way suggest that it has been shortened, actually it is quite a pleasing piece of work. Ham

20th August 2007, 08:18 PM	#16
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I agree with Ian and bbjw. If i look at the close up of the tip it says to me that the sword was shortened. The fuller ends very close to the tip like something is missing. Unfortunately we cann't see the sword in live. Maybe I'm mistaken and Ham has a great knowledge of these type of weapons. Fact is that we all agree that it is a beautiful sword.

21st August 2007, 07:20 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	I agree completely with Ham's assessment supporting Charles observation.This short tulwar does indeed appear a secondary type weapon intended as Ham notes, for close in fighting. It is interesting to note that describing noticeably short swords as childs swords is a common assumption. We do know of course that such swords did indeed exist, but the best guage is often to evaluate the size of the hilt, as has been noted here. The use of shorter swords for close combat is best seen in Ham's excellent comparison noting the wakizashi, which comprised the intermediate of the suite of swords carried by the Samurai. In China, many of the forms of dao are found with extremely short blades, which are considered to have been mounted for in close combat or use in the close confines in allies and narrow streets of cities of the time. It seems that there are numerous instances of cross influence between the weapons of China and India.While comparison between this example of short bladed tulwar and the similarly short bladed dao does not suggest any direct connection, it does seem worthy of note. Best regards, Jim

21st August 2007, 07:38 PM	#19
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the deadliest sword of the European area was the Roman gladius and it's associated weapons system, designed for close combat by infantry who were superbly trained in supporting each other, they easily beat the gauls and celts with their longer weapons who fought as individual warriors rather than as soldiers. in gaul alone julius caesar killed over a million or two in a few years, (tho not exclusively with the gladius). as the empire degenerated and the legions were a shadow of themselves, the longer cavalry spatha became the weapon of choice, most of the 'legionaries' were barbarian mercs who preferred them. in it's setting (close foot combat with a shield & armour) as part of it's weapons system, the gladius was and probably still is unequalled. it does not surprise me that other cultures found a similar solution to similar situations.

25th April 2019, 07:23 PM	#21
Fayaz94 Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 2	Hi Lew, I know what that sword is as I practice an Indian battlefield art called shastar vidiya. It's a sword for the God styles of fighting - 8 armed Goddess (asthbuja Deva chandika). I've actually been looking for one like that for ages. The Arabic inscription on the spine probably indicates it was made by a Muslim sword smith or for someone of that faith despite it being a sword based off Indian mythology. If you still possess the sword would you be willing to sell? As I have been seeking such an item for at least 3 years to train with. Let me know, many thanks.

25th April 2019, 07:27 PM	#22
Fayaz94 Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 2	It's called a Kathi sword.

25th April 2019, 09:21 PM	#23
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Welcome to the forum! Lew died several years ago and all pieces of his collection were sold. Here's the page of this sword: http://www.vikingsword.com/lew/w0090/w0090.html If you're lucky, a forumite obtained this sword and may contact you if willing to pass it on... Regards, Kai

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