Yi saber

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2007, 09:56 PM

Hi Ariel,
I think the terminology thing is one of the most confounding things in weapons study, and that is multiplied by semantics, colloquial terms, transliteration and general terms that broadly cover all forms of edged weapons in certain category.

I do know that in regulation swords the term sabre is often applied to straight military swords especially in British cavalry weapons. For example in the 1780's there was a straight sabre termed a spadroon with straight single edged blade , and it was generally accepted among basket hilt swords that a straight single edge sword was a 'backsword' while the double edged was a 'broadsword. This became even more confusing when the Scottish basket hilts of the 17th-19th c. began being termed 'claymores'. The claymore was of course a huge two hand broadsword of the 16th c-17thc and the term in Gaelic meant 'great sword'.

To make matters even more confusing on Indian swords, when is a 'sabre' a tulwar and when is it a shamshir? the standard tulwar hilt seems to be well placed as far as correct term, but there are those with Persian type hilts that are also called tulwars.....so are we calling it by the blade or the hilt?

In North Africa, the huge broadsword we all know as kaskara, as I have discussed over the years....has never been called a kaskara in the Sudan, in fact the Sudanese have no knowledge of the term. It is simply called a sa'if, just as in Morocco and Algiers the 'nimcha' is called sa'if. In Arabia the long straight sabres are called sa'if. I have seen Ottoman kilij type hilts with straight shamshir blades instead of the distinct short, yelman blade kilij...so is it a kilij or a shamshir? I call it a shamshir with Ottoman hilt.

This goes on and on, and it really is confusing. I guess the only solution is to apply the best description possible including defining features........as far as applying a term here I guess its preference. Technically if described by the standards of Eastern Europe or Turkey..pallasche would fit. It seems I have only ever seen them termed as Tibetan swords without further definition.

tomato/tomahto I guess

All the best,
Jim

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13th June 2007, 09:56 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Hi Ariel, I think the terminology thing is one of the most confounding things in weapons study, and that is multiplied by semantics, colloquial terms, transliteration and general terms that broadly cover all forms of edged weapons in certain category. I do know that in regulation swords the term sabre is often applied to straight military swords especially in British cavalry weapons. For example in the 1780's there was a straight sabre termed a spadroon with straight single edged blade , and it was generally accepted among basket hilt swords that a straight single edge sword was a 'backsword' while the double edged was a 'broadsword. This became even more confusing when the Scottish basket hilts of the 17th-19th c. began being termed 'claymores'. The claymore was of course a huge two hand broadsword of the 16th c-17thc and the term in Gaelic meant 'great sword'. To make matters even more confusing on Indian swords, when is a 'sabre' a tulwar and when is it a shamshir? the standard tulwar hilt seems to be well placed as far as correct term, but there are those with Persian type hilts that are also called tulwars.....so are we calling it by the blade or the hilt? In North Africa, the huge broadsword we all know as kaskara, as I have discussed over the years....has never been called a kaskara in the Sudan, in fact the Sudanese have no knowledge of the term. It is simply called a sa'if, just as in Morocco and Algiers the 'nimcha' is called sa'if. In Arabia the long straight sabres are called sa'if. I have seen Ottoman kilij type hilts with straight shamshir blades instead of the distinct short, yelman blade kilij...so is it a kilij or a shamshir? I call it a shamshir with Ottoman hilt. This goes on and on, and it really is confusing. I guess the only solution is to apply the best description possible including defining features........as far as applying a term here I guess its preference. Technically if described by the standards of Eastern Europe or Turkey..pallasche would fit. It seems I have only ever seen them termed as Tibetan swords without further definition. tomato/tomahto I guess All the best, Jim