Faceted Tips on Chinese Swords? (Split from HOS Catalogue thread)

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

This would give birth to the so called yokote in the Japanese blade.

This is really an undervalued and usually misunderstood thing.
In effect Yokote originated in China, as you correctly state. The following
sword is the one used by Shotoku Taishi and preserved in the Shosoin,
Nara, dated to the Sui (if chinese) / Asuka (if japanese) period (VII c. A.D.)
Origin still debated but in this period swords were imported in large quantities
from China. The Yokote with even stronger changing in geometry then the
one you've posted is evident, confirming the chinese origin of this feature,
now usually considered a japanese one :



Another example, same period but considered japanese, still identical to
mainland swords :

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

In the Jomon period chokuto both from China and Korea (ring pommel swords) were used mainly for stabbing, hence the ring to use the hand for pressing/pushing.
Many people think of Katana just for cutting, forgetting the stabbing purpose.

Almost all right here too, but I've to highlight that the therm Katana, even
if with wide meaning, is conventionally referred to curved swords.
Jokoto and straight, ring pommelled Warabite-to had (have?) a blade
geometry/section that wasn't good for cutting, being the Shinogi (ridge line),
when present, too low (see examples hereabove).
Of course you're right in saying they were used for slashing too, but not as
primary purpose. The contrary of the later Katana, that had a rised Shinogi
and a curvature that balanced the weakening of a thinner hardened
cutting edge. Reversely, here we've a marginal only stabbing purpose, due to
the cross section and general Sugata (shape), optimized for cutting.

A good modern museum quality reproduction of a ring pommelled
japanese Warabite-To, very similar to continental items (III/V c. A.D.) :

[josh stout]

Having stayed away from the vast world of Nihanto I am a bit confused by the discussion. I understand that many aspects of Japanese swords came from China, but the faceted tip is not found on Chinese swords as far as I know. I have seen the pictures posted of what may be a Chinese tribute blade (what do you call a present from one emperor to another?), but that is the only one I have ever seen. There are modern Chinese sword makers making "Han" style zheibeidao with tips like that, but I don't see them in actual Han examples. As HOS has some very good pictures of early iron and bronze pieces, can anyone site an example of a faceted tip? The zheibeidao form of the Tang dynasty that was copied by Japanese sword makers was preserved by Tibetan peoples and does not have a faceted tip.

Here is an example of a Chinese/Tibetan zhiebeidao. It is unusual in that the tip seems to have been separately applied, but there is no evidence of faceting.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation285.jpg

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation293.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation275.jpg

Josh

[Andrew]

Hi Josh. Check out post #40 in this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=40

Andrew

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by josh stout

I have seen the pictures posted of what may be a Chinese tribute blade (what do you call a present from one emperor to another?), but that is the only one I have ever seen.

Mmmm.. maybe the Sui swords we are referring to were all destroyed in the
centuries ?
Even in Japan such original items are no more then a few dozen, treasured
in Shrines and a very few only documented. In actual paintings you can't
find such a kissaki detail...
There are no evidences this was a present from Chinese Emperor, too.
Might be simply a very good blade purchased or custom ordered for
the Emperor. Anyway, even if it was the case, I'm not sure that a "tribute
blade" must necessarly have different features then the ones present on the
battlefield items. On the contrary such features usually are much more
detailed and well made to represent the status of both giving and receiving
parts.


Other then to quote the Tokyo National Museum I would add to my
sources Nagayama Kokan in his "Token Kantei Dokuhon" in which he depicts
another couple of them with chinese features and chinese provenance.
Here the scan of a detail of page 13 of the english version
(ISBN 4 7700 2071 6)
Kiriha means "with ridge line", Kamasu Kissaki means exactly the point's shape
of the pics I've posted, with Yokote.

[josh stout]

I am sorry for pushing this, but it is a fascinating question for me. The only Chinese blades with a facetted tip seem to be in Japan, and then there is the one from this thread that was restored to show the faceting. What did it look like before the restoration? I went back through the HOS pictures of bronze swords, which are in good enough condition and well photographed enough to show a faceted tip but could not find any. There are good Tibetan blades going back 500 years without any change in style, and then there are these 2000-year-old bronze blades that are still in roughly the same form. I know little of the intervening 1500 years. Thomas Chen's website describes the Tang and Sui swords in Japanese collections as probably from China, but they also could have been polished in a Japanese style.

One of the characteristics of Chinese swords is that many styles of many periods can be found coexisting, but they all seem to have lost the faceted tip if they ever had one. Such tips are not in my understanding found on typical swords of the Qing, Ming, Yuan or Song dynasties. They are certainly not visible in art from those periods that I have examined, and they are not found on antique examples done in those styles. (i.e. not necessarily dated to a particular dynasty but in the style of the dynasty).

I am not at all saying that such tips could not have existed. There are records of many Japanese blades ending up in China, and I have seen pictures of some possible examples that do not show faceted tips. So clearly Japanese blades would have had them, but maybe they lost their faceting? Would all of the Chinese blades also have lost their faceting? I would really like to see what the jian tip shown as an example in this thread looked like before restoration. Maybe I simply don't see faceting where others can. I have seen angled points like those shown, just not the distinct separate tip as found on Japanese swords. If such tips are there, it wouldn't be the first time I have had to learn to see something.
Josh

[Andrew]

I don't think it's unreasonable to pursue this area of inquiry at all, Josh. I have no expertise in this area, so I'm limited to a role as a spectator, however.

What I can do is split this off so we have a separate, dedicated thread, which the issue certainly deserves.

[tsubame1]

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

Originally Posted by josh stout

Thomas Chen's website describes the Tang and Sui swords in Japanese collections as probably from China, but they also could have been polished in a Japanese style.

They still have the original shape and have been preserved extremely well,
near to mint conditions. The "seven stars" one has very light carving on
them showing, among other things, a constellation. Japanese polishing
consists in using abrasive stones that would have deleted the carvings even
in a much lighter polishing then the one needed to change the point
geometry (you have to maintain the plans geometries and proportions so
EVERYTHING on the blade must be polished in a deep restoration.)
Not to say that the japaneses had no reasons in changing that shape.
It has to be noted, too, that the japaneses (that are quiet proud of their
nationality) never denied this provenance even during the mad '30s
in wich nationalism and xenophobia reached the top.

Originally Posted by josh stout

One of the characteristics of Chinese swords is that many styles of many periods can be found coexisting, but they all seem to have lost the faceted tip if they ever had one. Such tips are not in my understanding found on typical swords of the Qing, Ming, Yuan or Song dynasties. They are certainly not visible in art from those periods that I have examined, and they are not found on antique examples done in those styles. (i.e. not necessarily dated to a particular dynasty but in the style of the dynasty).

Checked for Sui and nearby ? I'm sorry to be too specialized in japanese
weaponry to have not other examples to show (in effect I've another one
with mounting but is still treasured in Japan so counts as the other ones..)

Originally Posted by josh stout

I am not at all saying that such tips could not have existed. There are records of many Japanese blades ending up in China, and I have seen pictures of some possible examples that do not show faceted tips. So clearly Japanese blades would have had them, but maybe they lost their faceting?

As per the japanese blades in China losing the yokote :
there are two explanations for this : improper polishing that deleted the
Yokote or simply a slightly different blade geometry called "Shobu Zukuri".
A faceted tip is harder to make. Most of the blades sold to China were
the so-called kazuuchimono, mass produced blades still very effective but
not of the same quality of the good ones. Such inferior blades were
widely made for large armies in japan too during certain periods in which
enormous armies had to be supplied, and a shobuzukuri (without faceted tip) cutting blade was easier to make, hence, I believe, the absence of it on some of the chinese examples. Of course, Shobuzukuri blades were made
even in high quality standards, but you hardly provide potential enemy with
the best of your production.

I would like to be advised by if you find something that can support or
even deny this theory as it is of great importance to me.
A sources showing chinese blade with this type of point would be a
*great* contribution to my studies. I'll make the same, no matter what
comes out, with you.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Whew, I belived this topic was deleted and me banned again ...

lol. Why would you think you had been banned?

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Conscience bothering you, perhaps?

No, because I've just posted in other two threads...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

No, because I've just posted in other two threads...

Exactly.

[tsubame1]

Let's try to use the mountings too and other different types of blades to help
the joint-venture in finding chinese-treasured specimen...

Here a Kanto no Tachi late Kofun (before 537. A.D) surely imported from China due to the roundly casted sword pommel. Later japanese ones were innovated into flat plate work, with continental designs stylized the japanese way (Swords of the Samurai, Harris and Ogasawara, British Museum publications ISBN 0 7141 1450 2) :



and here a couple other examples both considered as continental, both early to middle Asuka period , around 540-600 A.D. left kirihazukuri with ridge line and yokote (not visible due to reflection), right hirazukuri with neither ridge line nor yokote (apparently, due to the poor state) with "Fukura", rounded point instead of strainght angled one in all the other examples I've provided. These swords were imported too and were mounted the same way as the others (Sato, "The japanese sword", Kodansha publication ISBN 0 87011 562 6) :



Hope helps.

[josh stout]

Judging from the display on Thomas Chen's website (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo3.html) The Tang dynasty is the place to look. The angled point with no faceting shown on the Song saber is one I have seen examples of (There is a picture on another page of the same website of what appears to be a Qing copy of Song horse cutting saber with exactly that tip.) The problem is that I can't tell what the line drawing on Thomas Chen's website is based on. If it is based on the examples found in Japan we are back where we started. I found one site (http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.e...20Buddhism.pdf) that shows a Tang temple, and tantalizingly there is a deity holding a sword, but the tip is not visible... aargh! If anyone might get to that temple please take a picture. Another place to go would be the Tang dynasty caves listed here (http://ignca.nic.in/ks_19020.htm). I have seen Ming pictures of Tang dynasty personages, but of course the swords they hold are then in the Ming style. In the quick bit of research I have done on this topic I found that the reason Tibetan swords are often cited as being Tang in style is that the Tibetans conquered a large section of China during that time. So perhaps it is not that Tibetan swords are Tang in style but that Tang swords are Tibetan. However, Tibetan swords that I have seen do not have a faceted tip or ridgeline, so the focus might have to be non-Tibetan Tang dynasty swords.
I will continue to look.
Josh

[tsubame1]

Josh, is it possible that there is *no bibliography* about chinese swords
depicting the sword you've found in the site ? I can't believe there is no
printed timeline for swords of such a civilization out there.
Anyway, the link is fruitful. I think the author doesn't base the drawings
on japanese examples. Every other info on that page is clearly of chinese
origin. Take a look to the cross sections of swords and you'll notice the
presence of the one that is interesting us and that have as a natural
byproduct the Yokote. Very interesting the info about the textures
and their timelines too.

[josh stout]

I am not positive everything on the site is used with permission so not all the images are cited, and no, I don't think there is any good English timeline for Chinese sword styles. This website is the best I have found. The website also makes use of the same pictures of swords in Japan to illustrate Tang and Sui blade styles. (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html)

An interesting thought is that early Ming jain sent to Tibet as a gift from the emperor look Tibetan, perhaps blades sent to Japan look Japanese?

I have found one Early Ming or Yuan Tibetan saber in "Warriors of the Himalayas" with a medial ridge, which is interesting. Usually it is thought that faceted blade sections disappeared in China under the Yaun dynasty when curved dao and other Central Asian styles were introduced to China. Then faceted blades were supposedly reintroduced from Japan in the Ming and Qing perhaps with the influence of Ming general Qi who fought Japanese pirates. The Tibetan example hints that the style may have persisted through the Yaun without Japanese influence.

Still no faceted tips though. More like the look of a straight bladed Korean Hwando.
Josh

[Mark]

There is an excellent reference on Chinese bronze weapons, which unfortunately is hard to find and very expensive (it was published in Taiwan, no ISBN):

Wang, C.H. with Li Xueqin, Yang Hong, & Ma Chengyuan. Shang and Zhou Chinese Bronze Weaponry: The C.H. Wang Collection. Published by the Author, Taipei, Taiwan 1993.

A number of the swords shown have a facetted edge and tip construction. My guess is that this was primarily to leave the central part of the blade as thick and strong as possible, but the early steel weapons were in most cases versions of existing bronze weapons, so this might be an area to look for the genesis of the facetted tip in later jian.

You also can see this in some of the bronze weapons in the History of Steel catalogue, for example #60 (spear head), #72 (Warring States era jian). The facetting right at the tip is not pronounced, but I think it is there. A bronze Han Dynasty ring-pommel knife has essentionally the form of the later ring-pommel swords, but facetting on the tip is not visible (at least to me).

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by josh stout

An interesting thought is that early Ming jain sent to Tibet as a gift from the emperor look Tibetan, perhaps blades sent to Japan look Japanese?

Josh, doesn't work.
At that time (we're talking about 550/650 A.D.) japaneses plainly
copied almost everything from dresses to laws to army organization from
China. They hadn't a proper design for blades yet. They begun to produce
them on their own with the original chinese shape and only around 950 A.D.
they applied curvature to achieve a completely original japanese sword
design, still called with a chinese name, "Tachi".

[josh stout]

This thread has what looks like interesting information, but I don't read Chinese.

http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=17059

There is a very nice example of a Tang dao in excavated condition with a medial ridge. The tip is unclear, but it is rounded in shape. Would a tip have to be a straight line to be considered faceted, or would you consider a separately polished curved tip faceted?
Josh

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by josh stout

This thread has what looks like interesting information, but I don't read Chinese.

http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.php?tid=17059

There is a very nice example of a Tang dao in excavated condition with a medial ridge. The tip is unclear, but it is rounded in shape. Would a tip have to be a straight line to be considered faceted, or would you consider a separately polished curved tip faceted?
Josh

I think you refer to the second sword.
Yokote on swords with "fukura" (rounded tip) appeared (in Japan) only after
the straight line ones, but the matter works the same way. The smith places
a different plane on that area when smithing the point.
Polish is a secondary matter. When a blade begin "tired" (too much polishes)
the Togishi (polisher) can place a "cosmetic" only yokote to maintain the
visual appeal, but in origin the Yokote is presernt because of different
planes are put on that area, an id only highlighted by the polisher.
I reality, even if not polished, yokote is there anyway (if the blade is made
in Shinogizukuri style).
Being this chinese I'm not sure it had a yokote even if it has a ridge line.
A close up of the tip possibly would give us some hint, but the conditions
are quiet wrong... Interesting pictures with the "rounded work" ring pommel
that confirm their continental nature...