Beautiful Pendray knife as well as the price!!

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

ps... as you can see with the dha that Jesus made.... !

Got pics?

[Gt Obach]

oh dear... I meant Jesus Hernandez


http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=7567



Greg

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

oh dear... I meant Jesus Hernandez


http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=7567



Greg

Ah, I thought the other one
He was into carpentry: scabbards, shira saya etc

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

oh dear... I meant Jesus Hernandez


http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=7567



Greg

I know.

[A. G. Maisey]

Commencing in about 1978 I was involved in the making of custom knives.

I made a few complete knives, but was not fast enough, nor good enough to make more than about $2.50 per hour for my work.

I was pretty competent at making blades though, and I made a lot of damascus and nickel damascus blades for other makers.
I made billets, blanks, and completed blades.

These blades were all forged by hand with a hand held hammer, and the blades that I took to finished stage were made using hand tools, not machine grinders, linishers, and the like.Effectively I was working the way traditional smiths worked prior to the industrial revolution.

I did this work as a hobby, and I enjoyed it. I also became pretty fast at turning out blades. So fast that I was able to base my prices on $10 per hour.

The custom makers that I sold my blades to mostly worked to extremely high standards and tolerances.They invested very large sums of money in equipment that enabled them to turn out knives that were technological works of art. Fit and finish taken to the highest degree and the closest tolerances.

Many of these makers were machinists, tool makers, die makers, or other metal workers.One or two were jewellers who concentrated on lavish adornment. They were for the most part, skilled tradesmen working with their trade skills at a hobby.

Whenever the subject of remuneration for the work we did in making knives came up, it invariably came around to how little we could make on an hourly basis, compared with what we could make at our regular jobs. When the cost of equipment was factored in, it was obvious that many, if not most of these custom knife makers were not making any money at all from their work, but were in fact paying for the pleasure of pursuing a hobby.

My situation was a bit different:- I was working with low tech equipment, mostly stuff I'd made myself. The most expensive thing I had was the anvil, and that had cost me $120. My forge was built in an old truck wheel, and my blower was an old vacuum cleaner. What I made from making blades was pretty much all clear money.

I was able to turn out a useable knife from motor vehicle coil spring in about 40 minutes---straighten the coil, forge to shape, hoop handle, clean up, heat treat.

However, I also made a number of keris blades.
The shortest time a keris blade ever took me to make was 16 full working days.
The longest time a keris blade ever took me to make was 47 mandays, including 6 mandays working with two strikers in the forging.

Making a knife, or a dagger, or a sword is no different to any other work. It is simply work, that dependent upon the technology used, and the standard of the work, takes part of a person's life to complete.

When you buy a custom, or hand-made, knife you are paying for that part of a human life used in the production of the knife you have bought.

At what price do you sell your life to your clients, customers or employers?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

I also agree on the "garish" as stated by Ariel as well as what Louieblades said. As the blade did not sell also indicates the "Price is not Right".
My comments are on the BLADE not the furniture. I think that Pendray's modern wootz is some of the best around. I am of the opinion that Pendray made just the blade and someone else made the rest.
I did learn something (any day is a good day when I learn anything, and most of my days are very good) when Ariel stated that it is the cheapest style work. I am always amazed of the collective knowledge of folks on this forum.

Here is an example of a contemporary, mass-produced Georgian "kindjal" with a filigree job similar to the $8,500 one
http://cgi.ebay.com/GEORGIAN-CAUCASI...QQcmdZViewItem

[Lew]

A.G.

I understand that some knives are more work intensive but the smith who wanted to charge me $1200 for a using knife told me it took him a week to make a simple hunter and he broke it down by the hour in which he charged me for the time it took for the blade to cool after each forging 3 days where the blade just sat in his shop cooling slowly. A good knife smith should be able to make a standard knife in 3-4 days tops. Fancy art knives could take months of work and I can undestand having to pay a high price for one. Al Pendray would charge about $650-$800 for the blade so $8,000 just for the hilt and a scabbard is quite a bit much in IMO. There are good smiths here in the states that make good knives at affordable prices those are the only ones I deal with now when I want a good using blade. We have had this discussion at some seminars on custom knife making and feel that $35 an hour is fair for making knives most of these guys use trip hammers so it is quicker for them to bang out a blade. I think we just about exhausted this subject and there are always pro and cons when dealing with modern custom knives I think this thread should be put to rest at this point before it gets out of hand.

Regards

Lew

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you.

After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives.

But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

[ariel]

My comments are not meant to insult or belittle modern bladesmiths or other artisans involved in making replicas, modern renditions, old style etc, etc knives and swords.
I am just trying to clarify my purely personal reasons for not collecting them.
For me, history behind the object is of paramount importance. Any modern creation, no matter how technically advanced or artistic, lacks the ingredient of authenticity. These are not for me.
Others admire technical superiority of modern blades and the variety of exotic materials unavailable to old masters. They are the market that decides how much to pay for a contemporary sword.
The pricing for both ends of the spectrum is purely artificial and equally arbitrary. Any knifemaker, like any artisan, can charge whatever price he wishes. The market will decide. After all, what is the rational explanation for $3,000 - $15,000 price tags on Fiegel's Tulwars? $ 100,000 for a Katana? they have no practical contemporary value. Why is Kilij costing on the average twice as much as Shamshir? Who said that a good Khanjarli should command 5 times as much as Bichwa? The price is dictated not by the number of hours or cost of equipment, but by the collectors' "fashion of the day". Moro today, Chechnya tomorrow, Zaza Revishvili in 100 years.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lew, I tend to agree with you.

After all, this is a forum for discussion of ethnographic weaponry, not custom knives.

But just as a matter of interest, what do you think the capital investment might be in a trip hammer?

A.G.

A new 100lb trip hammer will cost about $5000 but if you do some looking you can buy an older used one for about half.

Lew

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Lew.

And that is only part of the capital investment required to produce a finely crafted custom knife to the standards demanded by today's extremely discerning buyers.

The makers I have known over the years have never achieved anything like the $35 PH that you consider to be reasonable remuneration for this type of work, and they have mostly regarded their investment in the equipment required to produce fine knives to be in the nature of "hobby costs".

However, if somebody wants to make a living from his work, he must factor in his capital costs, depreciation on his plant and equipment, his insurance costs, he must make provision for superannuation, and if he wants a holiday every year, or to cover days when he cannot work because of illness, he must factor allowances for that in too.Then there is the cost of material, and any other unmentioned overheads.

Ultimately the marketplace decides the price of a product. Makers like the fellow who you consider charged you too much for his product may not be able to compete. However, if that maker was doing something for which there was a demand, and which was unique, then possibly he could continue to charge prices which to you appeared to be unreasonable.

My personal position is that modern custom knife work, for the most part leaves me cold. Don't like it at all. I much prefer older pieces, or pieces with an ethnic flavour. For instance, I have a very soft spot for puukos.

But the only way we can truly determine in an objective way if any item is over priced is by analysis of the production of the item concerned.

Of course, the marketplace is not much into objective production analysis, but it is very sensitive to price, so what we usually finish up with is the bare minimum standard that satisfies the requirement.

[Tim Simmons]

Talking about the market is a tricky thing. Demand can be governed by a taste or perception rather than enquiry and investigation, largely depending on how intellegent the money is

[Gt Obach]

i remain somewhere in the middle ...liking both old and new blades.... ... after making a few myself.. i've a healthy respect for the smiths who do this for a living... i do think that there are some people doing very nicely in the biz of knives... but probably not a good as some of the antique dealers.. (maybe)

i've seen some 50lbs lil giant hammer go for 2000.... but the 30 ton hydraulic press seems to be more fashionable now a days..

all that being said... i do find pendray's blades abit pricey, but apparently he's got the name to sell it

i do like this kard he made... ( except the mokume pommel )
http://customknifegallery.com/pendray1f.html


G

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, spot on, Tim.

It pretty much depends on what drives a person to purchase the knife.

Like a car:- do you buy the Ferrari to cruise the beaches, or the Corolla to get you from point A to point B cheaply and reliably?

Or maybe you've got one of each in the garage.

Personally, I see modern custom knives as collectables, just as are jambiyas, keris, pesh kabz and so on.

I prefer the ethnic stuff; others prefer the work of modern custom makers.

Where it can get a bit unstable is where you buy a custom maker's knife to do the job of a tool; if that maker has produced what he sees as a collectable, it gets a bit hard to justify big dollars for what the buyer sees as a tool.

And yes, that is a seriously nice kard.

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

( except the mokume pommel )

You know... Mokume is trendy. Even engagement and marriage rings made
that way. My wife would have trow such rings out of the window...
But they are quiet well suited for Habaki IMHO.

@ Ariel. The link provided shows an evidently chep work, but the quality of
the mounting that started this thread is evidently much better too.
I can't say if enough to justify thousand of dollars, but if the stones are ruby
(obviously not the pidgeon-blood burmese ones...) the price increase.
To put an 8K U$ mounting on a 800 U$ blade is what, in my way to appreciate
weapons, the real nonsense...

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

I wonder what Antonio thinks about this matter...

I'm flattered to suddenly see my name here, Marco.
I'm no authority on Russian art and won't claim authority on anything

IMO, however, I do have my personal taste reservations on overly decorated art pieces such as Fabergé Eggs



and cloisonée work




as I think that they belong to a very specific expression that is not to my personal taste.

Presently there is an exhibition at the Museum, called Edictus Ridiculumby a friend, Russian artist Konstantin Bessmertny which is a fantastic example of irony and criticism on the world of Gambling, the Kitsch of getting Pharaohs, Zeus sculptures on a city dominated by Casinos which inevitably do refer to the theatrical and the ridiculous. I wish you guys could see this fantastic exhibition for what it represents. He is a 20th ~21st century Bosch or Breughel.

The entire exhibition is an installation which poses us the question of what is taste and what is the excess of it.

So I will not comment on the piece specifically as it is someone else's work.

[tsubame1]

Hi Antonio. Honestly I was referring to the belittling of
modern made artworks that was too strong in the replies (IMHO),
and not suggesting you're for the overdecorated ones.
I know your taste is quiet far from "Barocco Siciliano",
as is mine...

[Rick]

Hi Carlo,
Those stones are Garnets; were they quality rubies it would be worth the price for the stones alone .

I chipped this raw Garnet out of a quartz boulder here in New England.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Hi Antonio. Honestly I was referring to the belittling of
modern made artworks that was too strong in the replies (IMHO),
and not suggesting you're for the overdecorated ones.
I know your taste is quiet far from "Barocco Siciliano",
as is mine...

Hi Marco,

I'm sorry if I did not get it.
I think some replies extrapolate from your original post.
It is a risk.

[Lee]

How fortunate that our tastes and interests are diverse; otherwise most of us would not be able to afford a single thing that we really wanted. This thread has really opened into a number of philosophical discussions and it is the sort of off topic thread that I enjoy.

My own collecting philosophy and taste very much parallels that espoused by Ariel, although I do have a few modern pieces of diverse origins and also a few recently reworked pieces incorporating antique components.

I remember an old forum thread (on another site) in which one participant asked of the membership which Oakeshott type of European medieval sword they would most like to own an original antique example of. One reply nearly blew me off of my seat, for its author opined he would not want an antique out of revulsion as to what evils might have been committed with it and that he strongly preferred to be the owner of a new sword of known (clean) provenance.

Provided a modern bladesmith understands balance, edge geometry and material selection including proper heat treatment for that material and has the skill to apply same, that bladesmith can likely make a blade of significantly better functional quality than most of the antique blades many of us so cherish. That is the advantage modern science has given us and many modern smiths are truly great masters of their craft. Still I must reserve a special awe for the old masters who, without a framework of science and without modern tools, managed to create some fine works out of tradition and trial and error with the most primitive of tools.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Lee

How fortunate that our tastes and interests are diverse; otherwise most of us would not be able to afford a single thing that we really wanted. This thread has really opened into a number of philosophical discussions and it is the sort of off topic thread that I enjoy.

My own collecting philosophy and taste very much parallels that espoused by Ariel, although I do have a few modern pieces of diverse origins and also a few recently reworked pieces incorporating antique components.

I remember an old forum thread (on another site) in which one participant asked of the membership which Oakeshott type of European medieval sword they would most like to own an original antique example of. One reply nearly blew me off of my seat, for its author opined he would not want an antique out of revulsion as to what evils might have been committed with it and that he strongly preferred to be the owner of a new sword of known (clean) provenance.

Provided a modern bladesmith understands balance, edge geometry and material selection including proper heat treatment for that material and has the skill to apply same, that bladesmith can likely make a blade of significantly better functional quality than most of the antique blades many of us so cherish. That is the advantage modern science has given us and many modern smiths are truly great masters of their craft. Still I must reserve a special awe for the old masters who, without a framework of science and without modern tools, managed to create some fine works out of tradition and trial and error with the most primitive of tools.

When some visitors (usually of female persuasion) ask me in a swooning tone of voice, whether some, but just some, of those horrible things might have, you know, actually ... killed a person, I try to keep a straight face and honestly answer "I hope so"

[Montino Bourbon]

I love it, especially the Wusthof Santoku; a real pleasure to use, although I also like the Wusthof 8 inch chef's knife.

For a dagger, however, I'll take wootz with an Ivory grip, or a nice keris with pamor 'raja abala raja'.