Old Knife Info...Please

fjava · 20th February 2005, 01:51 PM

Hello,
I'm trying to find some info on an old knife I have. All I know is that its made of silver and has no markings on it.
Thanks for any help...
Tom

Yannis · 20th February 2005, 01:57 PM

It looks like turkish. But your photos are not good enough to say if it is recent or ottoman piece.

Battara · 20th February 2005, 02:57 PM

With the green patina in places I would say use of brass or white brass. Possibly some silver filigree, but I have my doubts. May be silver wash on brass.

tom hyle · 20th February 2005, 04:00 PM

Ditto that, but it doesn't address age or anything, mind you; I'm with Yannis; any chance of a better close-up (they're already better photos than I can make....)

fjava · 20th February 2005, 10:43 PM

I will try to take better pics...and post them asap

eftihis · 20th February 2005, 11:18 PM

This is definitely a dagger from Montenegro, i am quite sure about it, the hilt is typical.

Radu Transylvanicus · 21st February 2005, 12:17 AM

Eftihis, so this is not the soughtafter Kritis bitchaq ? Still lounging for one (not that that I know who has one ...) but just asking ...
And yes, under Ottoman influence in Balkans many, many [I]bitchaq[/I]`s like this were produced by ateliers in Montenegro

Yannis · 21st February 2005, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Eftihis, so this is not the soughtafter Kritis bitchaq ? Still lounging for one (not that that I know who has one ...) but just asking ...

Radu Transylvanicus · 21st February 2005, 12:29 AM

Mr. Yannis, stop doing that you make me feel like I am evil... Eftihis, dont listen to him, I was sincere, he is a twisted man...

Yannis · 21st February 2005, 12:34 AM

Seriously now.

It could be a Montenegro dagger. Eftihis has a good library on balkan area books. But I still need better pictures.

eftihis · 21st February 2005, 09:25 AM

Hallo all, I have seen this particular pattern of handle decoration in a dagger described as "Montenegrin" in the good and accurate German dagger book of Herman Historica.
I am not near my books at the moment, i will scan the page and post a photo when i will!
In a way it is also "turkish" since it was made in a place belonged to the ottoman empire at that time, and the "original prototype" was a turkish bichaq dagger, that just took its local style and appearance.
This can be purely accidental, ie just a smith or silverworker that works in a particular style, people like what he makes, he has some students that continue this style, and this way a local variation or "school" is made.
The same is happening with Cretan daggers, and what make them special to me is that i am from Crete and they were made on my island.
Radu, thanks for understanding my feelings, be sure i wil be looking for something for you from Rumanian past.
Yiannis (by the way, nice teeth!), i will have something for you so that you will stop complaining... (maybe we will have some raki first though, so that it will look more beautifull!)

fjava · 23rd February 2005, 10:36 PM

Here are some new pics....
Thanks for all your help guys...
Tom

ariel · 24th February 2005, 12:23 AM

What characteristic features define it as Montenegrin?

Yannis · 24th February 2005, 01:16 AM

fjava
This knife is more interesting in close photos. 19th century ottoman/balkan artwork! Silver with copper. The hilt it is far more important from my first thought. The scabbard is lower artwork.

You have to clean it a little. Some baking soda with little water and a toothbrush will do it shiny in few minutes. Dry it well after. Also the blade would appreciate some oil.

I will wait Eftihis to post a photo of Montenegro knife to compare, but I assume he is right.

eftihis · 1st March 2005, 07:50 PM

Here is the reference, that describes it as from Montenegro. I cannot read the German text, so if someone can it would be nice to read the full text.

Rather · 2nd March 2005, 11:39 AM

Just a simple translation of the text:

3.
Embellishment knife – Montenegro. Graceful piece, haft fully covered with filigree of silver, it ends again with the “bone” of the orient. Plain straight knife blade with punch ornaments. Shaft wrapper covered as well with filigree of silver. Scabbard is hasty and slovenly embossed silver (?) sheet, it ends in an animal head – certainly subsequently made as a substitute. (acquired directly from a farmer in Montenegro)

tom hyle · 2nd March 2005, 02:28 PM

A match down to the sheath

Ah, the bone of the Orient...........

Rather · 2nd March 2005, 03:43 PM

...must be a wishbone! Wish I would own such a beautiful kife....

fjava · 3rd March 2005, 11:28 AM

Thank you everyone for all your help...

20th February 2005, 01:51 PM	#1
fjava Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4	Old Knife Info...Please Hello, I'm trying to find some info on an old knife I have. All I know is that its made of silver and has no markings on it. Thanks for any help... Tom Attached Images

23rd February 2005, 10:36 PM	#12
fjava Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4	NEW PICs Here are some new pics.... Thanks for all your help guys... Tom Attached Images

1st March 2005, 07:50 PM	#15
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Here is the photo Here is the reference, that describes it as from Montenegro. I cannot read the German text, so if someone can it would be nice to read the full text. Attached Images

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20th February 2005, 01:57 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	It looks like turkish. But your photos are not good enough to say if it is recent or ottoman piece.

20th February 2005, 02:57 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	With the green patina in places I would say use of brass or white brass. Possibly some silver filigree, but I have my doubts. May be silver wash on brass.

20th February 2005, 04:00 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ditto that, but it doesn't address age or anything, mind you; I'm with Yannis; any chance of a better close-up (they're already better photos than I can make....)

20th February 2005, 10:43 PM	#5
fjava Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4	I will try to take better pics...and post them asap

20th February 2005, 11:18 PM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	This is definitely a dagger from Montenegro, i am quite sure about it, the hilt is typical.

21st February 2005, 12:17 AM	#7
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Eftihis, so this is not the soughtafter Kritis bitchaq ? Still lounging for one (not that that I know who has one ...) but just asking ... And yes, under Ottoman influence in Balkans many, many [I]bitchaq[/I]`s like this were produced by ateliers in Montenegro

21st February 2005, 12:29 AM	#9
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Mr. Yannis, stop doing that you make me feel like I am evil... Eftihis, dont listen to him, I was sincere, he is a twisted man...

21st February 2005, 12:34 AM	#10
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Seriously now. It could be a Montenegro dagger. Eftihis has a good library on balkan area books. But I still need better pictures.

21st February 2005, 09:25 AM	#11
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Hallo all, I have seen this particular pattern of handle decoration in a dagger described as "Montenegrin" in the good and accurate German dagger book of Herman Historica. I am not near my books at the moment, i will scan the page and post a photo when i will! In a way it is also "turkish" since it was made in a place belonged to the ottoman empire at that time, and the "original prototype" was a turkish bichaq dagger, that just took its local style and appearance. This can be purely accidental, ie just a smith or silverworker that works in a particular style, people like what he makes, he has some students that continue this style, and this way a local variation or "school" is made. The same is happening with Cretan daggers, and what make them special to me is that i am from Crete and they were made on my island. Radu, thanks for understanding my feelings, be sure i wil be looking for something for you from Rumanian past. Yiannis (by the way, nice teeth!), i will have something for you so that you will stop complaining... (maybe we will have some raki first though, so that it will look more beautifull!)

24th February 2005, 12:23 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What characteristic features define it as Montenegrin?

24th February 2005, 01:16 AM	#14
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	fjava This knife is more interesting in close photos. 19th century ottoman/balkan artwork! Silver with copper. The hilt it is far more important from my first thought. The scabbard is lower artwork. You have to clean it a little. Some baking soda with little water and a toothbrush will do it shiny in few minutes. Dry it well after. Also the blade would appreciate some oil. I will wait Eftihis to post a photo of Montenegro knife to compare, but I assume he is right.

2nd March 2005, 11:39 AM	#16
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Just a simple translation of the text: 3. Embellishment knife – Montenegro. Graceful piece, haft fully covered with filigree of silver, it ends again with the “bone” of the orient. Plain straight knife blade with punch ornaments. Shaft wrapper covered as well with filigree of silver. Scabbard is hasty and slovenly embossed silver (?) sheet, it ends in an animal head – certainly subsequently made as a substitute. (acquired directly from a farmer in Montenegro)

2nd March 2005, 02:28 PM	#17
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	A match down to the sheath Ah, the bone of the Orient...........

2nd March 2005, 03:43 PM	#18
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	...must be a wishbone! Wish I would own such a beautiful kife....

3rd March 2005, 11:28 AM	#19
fjava Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4	Thank you everyone for all your help...