hatf

[fenlander]

Thanks that is great, a lot to get looking into there. Not as much on the net as I thought there would be though!

[ariel]

Dr. Unsal Yucel published a book titled " Islamic Swords and Swordmakers" with all the pics of Sacred Swords from the Topkapi.
In many cases, he inserts a cautious statement, like "... it is difficult to say whether this sword is from the 6th century CE..." or something like that.
All of them are typical Mameluke swords and cannot be older than 14th century or thereabouts. Old enough, but no cigar...
Are there any archeologically-authenticated pre-Islamic swords NOT belonging to the same group?

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Dr. Unsal Yucel published a book titled " Islamic Swords and Swordmakers" with all the pics of Sacred Swords from the Topkapi.
In many cases, he inserts a cautious statement, like "... it is difficult to say whether this sword is from the 6th century CE..." or something like that.
All of them are typical Mameluke swords and cannot be older than 14th century or thereabouts. Old enough, but no cigar...
Are there any archeologically-authenticated pre-Islamic swords NOT belonging to the same group?

Hello Ariel,

Im pretty sure Dr.Yucel confirms that some of those swords belong to that era, the only problem is, he cannot confirm if they really belonged to their alleged owners.

Besides this collection in Topkapi, I do not think that we have in world today, any other swords from that period. Oh, BTW, those swords are actually wootz, and most probably Indian made.

[ariel]

If there are no independent ways to ascertain their age, we are in a circular logic vortex:
" Pre-Isalmic Arabian swords were straight as evidenced by the collection of the Sacred Swords.
The Sacred Swords are Pre-Islamic in origin because they are straight"
The only dating on these swords is the tradition that they belonged to a defined personality. If we cannot be sure that they belonged to that personality, how do we know their dating?

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ariel

If there are no independent ways to ascertain their age, we are in a circular logic vortex:
" Pre-Isalmic Arabian swords were straight as evidenced by the collection of the Sacred Swords.
The Sacred Swords are Pre-Islamic in origin because they are straight"
The only dating on these swords is the tradition that they belonged to a defined personality. If we cannot be sure that they belonged to that personality, how do we know their dating?

Valid point Ariel. For one, pre-islamic arabic poetry praises watered steel indian blades, and the fact that these swords are of wootz, and are straight, does give some credibility to the claim that they are early arab. What we need is the primary documents which listed these blades falling into the hands of Sultan Selim I after his conquest of Egypt (as the story goes), taking them from the last Abbasid Caliph, whom allegedly possesed these items.