The Knife, Sacrifice and Meaning

[Emanuel]

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

Hello, Emanuel,
How traditions and superstitions evolve is a fascinating study, one that many anthropologists and behaviorists devote their careers to. Why certain things are considered lucky or unlucky are snapshots of how religions evolve as a whole.

I work in the retail environment, and one of the things I find amusing is the cycle of seasonal decorations we sell every year, especially the secular trappings of religious holidays. Modern neopagans and heathen have an ongoing struggle to rediscover what our ancestors held sacred and why. As with many suppressed religions, the documentation is scarce and extremely fragmented, and we often have to turn to clues that are buried in folk traditions as to what the pre-Christian peoples held sacred.

Take Easter for example. I don't know how the people celebrate it in Rome (or Romania), but in the US there's a huge industry around it, focusing on candy and Easter Egg hunts, with the motif of baby rabbits and freshly hatched chicks everywhere you look. I looked very carefully last year, and despite its significance as a Christian holiday, found a total of one chocolate cross. Everything else was devoted to bunnies and chicks, both of which are fertility symbols sacred to Eostre, or Ishtar, a Pre-Christian Goddess of Spring.

There are numerous other examples, none of them very surprising. When a new religion moves in and dominates a region, especially when it is enforced from above instead of converting from below (the leaders of a people mandating that their subjects convert) the festivals and symbols are often grafted onto the new religion. The same practices continue onward, but under new names.

Now as to how this relates to weapons, well I've seen comments that there have been occasional discussions of so-called 'satanic' daggers on this board. The question that needs to be raised about any such daggers is not what the symbology represents in modern context, but what it represented in the context of whoever created it. I've seen Buddhist art objects covered in sunwheels, also known as swastikas, but I don't think anyone believes that the Dalai Llama was a Nazi. And Catholic communion involves the ritual transubstantiation of wine and bread into the blood and body of Christ, but I don't think anyone serious believes that the Apostles were cannibals. So any symbols, shapes or forms a blade or hilt might take need to be studied objectively and researched VERY carefully before any conclusions can be reached.

Fenris

[Emanuel]

If the blade of the sacrificial knife is removed and refitted to another banal handle, it loses its spiritual/sacrificial meaning does it not? Conversely, the sacrificial knife may be replaced by any other object as long as it does the job and can be integrated into ceremonial gear and aesthetics. Do the cultures that still carry out sacrifices imbue a certain spirit into the tool as the Indonesians do with the keris for example? Is there the equivalent of an Isi in the knife used by the Benin witch/priest?

I agree Fenris, Easter is a peculiar holiday, with long forgotten and disregarded meaning, but then I often feel it has passed from cult to pure consumerism. Us Orthodox we have a ritual with painted eggs - ideally red to signify the blood of Christ. The chocolate things now sold everywhere are a totally different thing unfortunately.

Emanuel

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Manolo

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

It is fascinating how rituals evolve and are perpetuated.

A woman I know lived in an apartment complex. One cold morning she got in her car and when she started the engine she heard a short-lived scream from under the hood ("bonnet" for you Brits).

She opened the hood and saw the remains of a cat. Apparently the animal. seeking warmth had gotten into the engine the previous night after she arrived home, fell asleep and was caught in the fan blades when she started the engine the next morning.

She was very afraid this would happen again, so every morning thereafter, before she started the engine, she would thump the hood with her hands a few times to be sure another cat had not fallen asleep on her engine.

Chlidren nearby saw this and asked her why she was doing this. Not wanting to tell them about the cat's horrible death, she told them that she was just "Waking up the car's engine."

Soon after, she noticed that children all over her apartment complex were thumping their families' car hoods to "wake up the engine" before the family left on an outing.

Thus a new ritual began.

[VANDOO]

WHEN FLINT BLADES BECAME DULL THEY WERE RE-KNAPPED TO SHARPEN THE EDGES SO EACH TIME THIS WAS DONE THE BLADE GOT SMALLER AND SOMETIMES CHANGED SHAPE A BIT. SO I GUESS THAT BLADES ON SACRIFICAL KNIVES WERE REPLACED AND THE FANCY HANDLE MAY HAVE BEEN REUSED OR PERHAPS REPLACED BY AN ENTIRELY NEW KNIFE
I SUSPECT THE BLADE WAS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE HANDLE AS IT WAS MERELY THE SHARP PART OF THE TOOL AND ALL THE SYMBOLISM AND SPIRITUAL POWER WAS IN THE DECORATED HANDLE AND THE PRIEST. I HAVE NEVER READ OF THE DISCOVERY BY ARCHEOLOGISTS OF LOTS OF DISCARDED SACRIFICAL KNIVES SO THAT MAKES ME THINK THE HANDLES WERE REUSED OR PERHAPS THE ENTIRE KNIFE WAS DESTROYED

THERE WERE ALSO SOME VERY FANCY CEREMONIAL ECCENTRIC FLINTS THAT WERE REAL WORKS OF ART AND NEVER RESHARPENED SO THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN ACTUAL USE. THERE ARE 9 SUPERB EXAMPLES IN ONE OF THE OLD NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINES I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO THRU MY REFRENCES TO FIND IT BUT IT DOES HAVE A CEREMONIAL KNIFE ON THE FRONT COVER. PERHAPS I CAN LOOK LATER .

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IT WOULD SEEM THE HUMAN RACE DOES TRY TO HANG ON THEIR OLD TRADITIONS,BELIEFS AND BEHAVIORS. PERHAPS THAT EXPLAINS WHY MANY OF US SEEM TO REVERT TO BABOONS FROM TIME TO TIME ESPECIALLY WHEN DRIVING A CAR

ROTFLMAO!

[Tim Simmons]

This fist pic being an old picture from turn of the 19/20 century India. Is that a special knife? or just an agricultural tool? could an agricultural tool be significant? Compere with the second pic from Africa.


In this cropped picture, to concentrate on the knife. Sacred objects are being rejuvenated. The knife appears to very ordinary. The differences between an ornate and designated knife might be related to the degree of specialist personnel in the belief system and the gravity of the local.

[Emanuel]

Hello Tim,
The Indian knife looks like a Mopla knife, but it could be agricultural. I guess the beaheading is beast done by concave edges - as demonstrated by khukri and kora in Nepal - so the mopla was chosen to behead the goat simply for its effectiveness...maybe.
I'm thinking that the degree of spirituality or specialty attributeds to the knife varies depending on the context: a relatively poor society or group may use any available tool, while a richer one may use specifically designated (maybe blessed/sanctified?) blades.

Vandoo, could the handles themselves act as deities? I mean could they be used separate from the blade, simply as devotional sculptures/amulets? That leads me to ask "how different is a handle from a sacrificial knife from a statue, if at all?" For example, I have a little tourist statue from Mexico, carved in soapstone, that looks a lot like the knife posted by Tim.

Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

They do things differently there. This is a rather staged photo from the late 19th century. A time when a section of British society was and still is deeply fascinated and romantic about the Islamic world. The picture is near east Syria? Look closely, is that a saber? I cannot see a guard? could this be a special blade for halal method? Even if a staged photo I see no reason that it was not done as shown. Bye and bye I live not even 10miles from the first mosque in the UK, in a town called Woking built in 1889. No black pudding for breakfast then.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This fist pic being an old picture from turn of the 19/20 century India. Is that a special knife? or just an agricultural tool? could an agricultural tool be significant? Compere with the second pic from Africa.

Hi, Tim;

I found this picture very interesting , especially after I compared it to this item that showed up today:



The blade is significantly smaller, but what little of the hilt that can be seen looks similar. Also, the blade is sharpened on the inner edge only, making it perfect for a drawcut across the throat of a sacrifice. The engraving on either side of the blade resembles a stylized century plant, which I know some people viewed as a symbol of rebirth (I don't know if that belief was held in India or not.) The outer curve has a false edge for about two-thirds edge, but is not sharp.

Fenris

[Rick]

That looks like a Chilean Corvo .
Scroll down.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=corvo