PI Weaponry in Spanish Museums

[engar]

Hi,
I take some pics on PI weaponry in some Spanish Museums, in Madrid and Barcelona, and I would like to share this with all the forumites.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/engar
I didn´t make pics about Lantaka, but if anyone are interested I´ll made some pics on it, I think that Madrid Army Museum haves 30 or 40 Lantakas. Anyway I take all the pics from the Museums rooms and I suppose that they have hundreds of weapons in their collections apart from room pieces.
This morning I visited Spanish Navy Museum and they have a lot of good pieces but the don´t permit to take pictures (like weaponry, armours, model scale boats,etc.). I´ll contact with the Museum direction to try to obatin a licence to take some pics.
If anyone are interested in something in particular, made me know it.
Enjoy it!!
P.S.Excuse the quality of the pics, I bought my camera one week ago
and excuse my "english"

[Rick]

Absolutely great stuff Engar .
Wonderful !

Ian , note this picture .
Another big bellied Y hilt bolo :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/HPIM2137.jpg

Incredible !!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/HPIM2209.jpg

Thanks !

[Conogre]

Good eye Rick...there are two more listed in photo #26.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2214.jpg
I was awestruck by the weaponry, literally, and especially noticed the kris with the clamshell guard, something I've never seen before.
The wide range of hilts and sizes of various weapons also show that there is MUCH to the field that we are unaware of, even following authorotative texts, and I suspect many atypical pieces have been erroneously passed off as hoaxes, fakes or compilation pieces in the recent past.
What a beuatiful series of photos!!
Engar, thank you ever so much.
Mike

[Federico]

Maraming Salamat Po Engar. Muchas Gracias. Many many many thanks. These pics are simply beautiful. The variety and detail are simply amazing. I loved the cup-hilted kris. Thank you...

[moose]

I'm speechless!

Engar, I can't thank you enough. This really moves things along as far as my collective knowledge.

moose

[Yannis]

Hey! All these photos of indonesian stuff and not even one from mediteranean area? Are you sure you took these photos in Spain?

Ops! Sorry, I didnt notice "PI" in title!

[MABAGANI]

Thanks Engar, now I really look forward to touring Spain again and seeing those great examples in person. Makes me wonder what's in storage and how they provenanced each artifact over three centuries.

[Rick]

Fascinating !
I have the twin of the blade that is shown by #4 in this picture .
Twisted core with applied laminated edges .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/HPIM2137.jpg

[zelbone]

Well, Engar, you've done it...

You have now made me want to go to Spain and visit all the museums there !!! Like Mabagani, I would be interested on how they provenanced all those wonderful pieces. I guess I'll have to brush up on my Spanish...

Thanks for sharing those awesome photos!!!

[Battara]

Mil Gracias. Thank you so much. I have noticed that some of the weapons are African mixed in with the rest of the PI stuff.

[engar]

Thanks for your kind words, but I prefer any weapon from your collection better than words hehehehe (also a copy of Robert Cato book). I hope that the picture collection increase very soon but I can´t assure it.
I loved the cup-hilted kris.
I love it too, it´s my favourite item from the Army Museum. I will try to take more pics on it the next time, but his position it´s not vert good for pics.
I have noticed that some of the weapons are African mixed in with the rest of the PI stuff.
Yes, they mix weapons from differet countries/cultures but it can be possible to read in the poster of the item near every "shield" the origin of everyone.
The mayority of the Antropologic Museum items comes with the 1887 great exhition about PI. In 1886 the Spanish Government started a central comission in Manila to receive, classify and study all the objects that they received from the provinces and districts. After the great exhibition all the objects became part of the "Museo-Biblioteca de Ultramar". For the moment I haven´t more info about the pieces from this museum but they have a very competent librarian and I hope to have a lot of interesting information very soon. For the moment I have a very interesting photocopies about Metal Working from "Art in Sulu: A Survey. Philippine Studies, Vol. 11, 1963.David Szanton", if anyone are interested this photocopies I can scann them (but I forgot to photocopy the handle working).
All you are welcome in Madrid.

[zamboanga]

engar,

gracias for sharing the pictures.

what got my attention is that yakan pakkel (saddle) http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2178.jpg .

it comes complete with abaca seats. very similar to one i sold last year but this one comes with stirrups. among the moros, the yakans are most adept in horseriding. they even have horse races during their lami-lamihan festival.

carlo

[Federico]

At first I was surprised at the mix of swords, until I started reading the cards. Some are off (it would appear that at some point someone switch letters for a few of them), but most were surprisingly accurate if not sparse in their information. I liked reading the little description about smithing in the Philippines. Interesting to hear that this collection was mostly started in 1886. I was wondering about the narrow range in age of pieces displayed, but this would seem to be an explanation. Still the breadth of the collection is impressive. Particularly it is interesting to see such age on the tenegres. We had talked about them being old, but to see such truly old pieces in such marvelous shape was breath taking. Cant wait to see more pics of the cup hilted kris, and like Zel and Mabagani, the museums in Spain will definitely be visited some day down the road (well maybe a long ways down but someday). Once again thank you for sharing.

[LabanTayo]

enger,
thank you, thank you so much for the pics.
they answer a lot of questions and also add a few more.
one thing i noticed though, no pira's (gasa).
the visayan weapons were great. it makes me appreciate my collection even more now.

[Justin]

another odd bolo,the missing link?:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2147.jpg


And more:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2215.jpg

[zamboanga]

There are two samples here of Item No. 4 listed as Espada Doble China : http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2134.jpg

I'm intrigued with this item.

would anyone know its' history?


carlo

[tom hyle]

Sword double China. Look like jians, perhaps the kind that go two in a case.

[ariel]

I am awed but not surprised: after all, the Spanish left the Philippines in 1898; thus, by definition, all pieces in the Spanish museums are much older than what we usually see.
I have seen quite a lot of "weapon plaques" from the area: they show a lot of sword types that are not even mentioned in Cato's book, but here they are in flesh and blood (pun not intended, and is bad anyway). Do we know their names?

[John]

Agree with Tom; Chinese Shuang (double) Jians. These paired jians are designed to fit back-to-back in the same scabbard and intended to be wielded one in each hand.

[Spunjer]

thx engar.
one picture that attracted my attention was this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/HPIM2137.jpg
...specifically the Panabas with a naga (?) hilt and ornated scabbard. beautiful!!!

[tom hyle]

I haven't the capability to enlarge things that others have, but it looks more like a crocodile hilt to me, and there's somehow a Visayan look about the angling.
how 'bout that Visayan cutacha? yum yum
Another one of those Y-handle "bolo"s; over here we've never seen 'em; in Spanish musea they got loads of 'em......

[Spunjer]

engar,
would it be safe to say that all these weapons are pre-1900?

[engar]

Absolutely not! Only that Antropologic Museums PI collection begins in XIX century.

[Ian]

Engar:

You really have hit what we refer to in English as the "mother lode." These specimens are an unusually large and diverse collection of Philippine weapons, some of which we have not seen before. Truly unique collections.

A critical question for me is when these specimens were collected and returned to Spain where they eventually ended up on display. Just how old are these weapons? Any ideas?

Another question -- how many more weapons are stored in the back rooms of these museums? And what about other museums outside Madrid? Is it possible that, say, museums in Barcelona could have similar collections of weapons?

It seems that a Philippine weapons collector should spend some serious time in Spain. I'm checking my Frequent Flyer miles on NWA.

Ian.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

engar,
would it be safe to say that all these weapons are pre-1900?

No, you can't for all the pieces, but it's a very reasonable working hypothesis, at least for the Army Museum Pieces. The collection comes from pieces acquired by Officers coming back from service in the Philippines, and donating them to the museum. Them, or their widows/heirs. A few of the pieces have some kind of significance ("Keris used in the assassination attempt of Lieutenant Francisco García by a "juramentado" in Manila that resulted in the death of Corporal Enrique Vergara who died protecting his superior with his own body. Donated by Lt. García's Widow etc., etc.", this kind of thing), but the majority of them are just the idea they had on that time of what a "souvenir" was.

I'm sorry if I look a bit baffled by all this excitement but... you mean no one ever thought that if there was a place outside the Philippines themselves where these weapons could be found more ubiquitously, this place would be Spain?

[Ian]

Marc:

I think the surprise is not so much that these weapons are in Spain, but that they have been displayed in such numbers. Some British Museums, for example the V&A, have basically withdrawn their "colonial" weapons from public view. Many of the Indian swords that were used to illustrate the book by Egerton, and later the one by Rawson, are no longer on display -- although they can be viewed by special request.

So it is a pleasant surprise to see so many old Philippine weapons on display.

Ian.

[Marc]

Thanks, Ian.
The Army Museum is indeed a bit "peculiar" in its museographic plan...

BTW, the museum is being moved to Toledo, can't really tell you how much will be on display in the new location. The move is been long delayed, but should happen at any time, now. So, if anyone plans to visit, it better be soon...

[Federico]

I know for myself, that my appreciation comes from the fact that I will probably not have the money to do any significant travel to Spain for many many many years. I know Bob Cato spent quite a bit of time in Spanish, American, Philippine, and South American museums researching for his book. But, my own limits on travel make such an attempt virtually impossible. However, with the beauty of the internet, the Oceans have been bridged and someone who is as limited in travel funds as I can finally appreciate the wealth of information held in museums many miles away. The one thing though that I was really surprised at, was the late start of the collection. There are pieces in the Smithsonian collection that were donated in the early 19th century (Im forgetting the actual date though its well before the Civil war), during an American expidition into the region. I would have thought that there would be more pieces collected at an earlier date in a Spanish collection given the colonial history in the region.

[Marc]

Federico:
I don't know if I understand you well, but I would like to point out keep that Engar's comment about the 19th origin was intended for the Anthropological Museum's collection ( and there's no mention about at what point of the 19th century). AFAIK, the Army Museums ones are composed by different lots, each one with its particular story.

[Conogre]

One nice thing about a wealth of photgraphs this inclusive is that you can go back, time after time, and notice something pointed out by another's comments that may have escaped you the first time or few.....I can't speak for anyone else, but the first time I was literally overwhelmed!
Justin's comment about the "missing link", for instance, stopped me dead.....the Y-hilted bolos that he pointed out, although disimilar from the two "mystery swords/knives" do show a possible evolution when displayed next to the burongs, as these are.
It doesn't address by whom or when, but it is an interesting thought at least and would seem to lend some credence to the possibility/probability of a Philippine origin.
I agree with Ian ......I can visualize dwelling for hours in front of these beauties as if time had stopped altogether.
Mike