Czerny's auction

ariel · 2nd December 2006, 10:30 PM

These swords just ended.
Despite being considered a respectable place, the follies were rather noticeable.
See, for example, this:
"A Mandaya Knife"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0595&rd=1&rd=1
After that, all our hairsplitting arguments about Laz vs. N. African origin of this sword pale in comparison.
Also, there were 3 Caucasian swords of either very modern origin or with forged signatures, and S. Arabian Ottoman -style Kilic Ajemi identified as Persian etc, etc.
If we cannot rely on professional dealars, who can we trust?

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2006, 10:40 PM

Ariel, dealers are in trade not professions. Professionals are also frequently misinformed and not unknown to be dishonest. Bankers, lawyers, etc

VANDOO · 2nd December 2006, 11:47 PM

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HONESTY AND REPUTATION WERE MORE IMPORTANT TO MANY PROFESSIONALS IN MANY TRADES. TODAY MANY DO NOT CONSIDER EITHER ONE IMPORTANT AND EITHER FAIL TO CHECK OUT DESCRIPTIONS OF ITEMS OR JUST MISREPRESENT THEM NOT CARING ABOUT REPUTATION OR RIGHT AND WRONG. POLITICIANS MAKE PROMISES THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF KEEPING, CON MEN CON, AUTOMOBILE COMPANYS DESIGN A PRODUCT TO BREAK AND NEED CONSTANT REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT AND OVERPRICE PARTS AND SERVICES BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER CARE IF YOU BUY ANOTHER CAR FROM THEM OR NOT. COMPLACENCY, GREED AND LAZYNESS CONTINUE TO CHIP AWAY AT THE HIGHER GOALS OF MANKIND. OUCH! I JUST FELL OFF THE OL SOAP BOX

ariel · 3rd December 2006, 12:03 AM

OK, here is another one:
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...1,1#la-image-5
Looks totally legitimate. Rivkin, however, wrote me that the markings are very unusual: a mix of Armenian (old) and Georgian (modern) letters. (Thanks, Kirill!). They are not incised but acid etched, and I can't remember seeing this technique for the purpose on old Ottoman swords ( only on new ones, ie, when they got the Germans running their military).
And the Damascene pattern is very unusual: looks almost like Pamor.
What do you think?

Rivkin · 3rd December 2006, 05:19 AM

Sorry Ariel for not replying to your last messages...I was really screwed up this week. I do find a lot of items that Chery posts to be questionable. However, I can not deny that Cherny is one of a few places where I see highly unusual kindjals and not the same old boring 1860+ Kubachi/Tiflis.

However I can not say for sure that this sword is not some semi-fantasy 19th century item.

Philip · 3rd December 2006, 08:44 AM

That phrase can't be repeated often enough in this business.

Anybody who opens a catalog or goes to a site and thinks that just because a description is written by an "internationally renowned auction house" then it must be as true as the Gospels is asking to have his pocket picked. Here's where diligent study (hands-on whenever possible), and discussion venue such as this are invaluable.

Andrew · 3rd December 2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Ariel, dealers are in trade not professions. Professionals are also frequently misinformed and not unknown to be dishonest. Bankers, lawyers, etc

It's the Accountants you can't trust, Tim.

Battara · 3rd December 2006, 09:50 PM

Ariel, I gave up complaining about this issue long ago...it's hopeless....

ariel · 3rd December 2006, 10:23 PM

I am not complaining, it's just strange that they could not find anybody better acquainted with the difference between Persian and Turkish scabbard or with Laz Bicagi. Perhaps, they may have a superb staff dealing with European weapons, but their "Islamic" knowledge is questionable.

Rivkin · 3rd December 2006, 10:58 PM

The question is - do they _want_ to better identify what they sell ? I have worked with numerous dealers and most of the time they blatantly ignored my suggestions, with an exception of some simple things, like identifying the material from which the weapon's decorations are made (gold, silver, ivory). I guess it is to some extent benefitial to dealers to be as vague as possible, meaning that every buyer would have the ability to see in the item what he wants to see.

Philip · 4th December 2006, 12:16 AM

...is that dealers are in business, for the most part, to sell their merchandise for what the market will bear. They are not in the business of educating the public. Too many times I've had dealers say to me, only half jokingly, "you guys know too much, you're always picking things apart. It's easier for us to sell to the fellows who don't know anything!" By "you guys" it's meant us geeks who post on forums, frequent the Timonium seminars, build study collections, or who have/are planning to publish academically.

Battara · 4th December 2006, 08:29 PM

My wife calls us "Geeks with swords".

2nd December 2006, 10:30 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Czerny's auction These swords just ended. Despite being considered a respectable place, the follies were rather noticeable. See, for example, this: "A Mandaya Knife" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0595&rd=1&rd=1 After that, all our hairsplitting arguments about Laz vs. N. African origin of this sword pale in comparison. Also, there were 3 Caucasian swords of either very modern origin or with forged signatures, and S. Arabian Ottoman -style Kilic Ajemi identified as Persian etc, etc. If we cannot rely on professional dealars, who can we trust?

3rd December 2006, 08:44 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	caveat emptor That phrase can't be repeated often enough in this business. Anybody who opens a catalog or goes to a site and thinks that just because a description is written by an "internationally renowned auction house" then it must be as true as the Gospels is asking to have his pocket picked. Here's where diligent study (hands-on whenever possible), and discussion venue such as this are invaluable.

4th December 2006, 12:16 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	the bottom line... ...is that dealers are in business, for the most part, to sell their merchandise for what the market will bear. They are not in the business of educating the public. Too many times I've had dealers say to me, only half jokingly, "you guys know too much, you're always picking things apart. It's easier for us to sell to the fellows who don't know anything!" By "you guys" it's meant us geeks who post on forums, frequent the Timonium seminars, build study collections, or who have/are planning to publish academically.

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2nd December 2006, 10:40 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Ariel, dealers are in trade not professions. Professionals are also frequently misinformed and not unknown to be dishonest. Bankers, lawyers, etc

2nd December 2006, 11:47 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE WAS A TIME WHEN HONESTY AND REPUTATION WERE MORE IMPORTANT TO MANY PROFESSIONALS IN MANY TRADES. TODAY MANY DO NOT CONSIDER EITHER ONE IMPORTANT AND EITHER FAIL TO CHECK OUT DESCRIPTIONS OF ITEMS OR JUST MISREPRESENT THEM NOT CARING ABOUT REPUTATION OR RIGHT AND WRONG. POLITICIANS MAKE PROMISES THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF KEEPING, CON MEN CON, AUTOMOBILE COMPANYS DESIGN A PRODUCT TO BREAK AND NEED CONSTANT REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT AND OVERPRICE PARTS AND SERVICES BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER CARE IF YOU BUY ANOTHER CAR FROM THEM OR NOT. COMPLACENCY, GREED AND LAZYNESS CONTINUE TO CHIP AWAY AT THE HIGHER GOALS OF MANKIND. OUCH! I JUST FELL OFF THE OL SOAP BOX

3rd December 2006, 12:03 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, here is another one: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...1,1#la-image-5 Looks totally legitimate. Rivkin, however, wrote me that the markings are very unusual: a mix of Armenian (old) and Georgian (modern) letters. (Thanks, Kirill!). They are not incised but acid etched, and I can't remember seeing this technique for the purpose on old Ottoman swords ( only on new ones, ie, when they got the Germans running their military). And the Damascene pattern is very unusual: looks almost like Pamor. What do you think?

3rd December 2006, 05:19 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Sorry Ariel for not replying to your last messages...I was really screwed up this week. I do find a lot of items that Chery posts to be questionable. However, I can not deny that Cherny is one of a few places where I see highly unusual kindjals and not the same old boring 1860+ Kubachi/Tiflis. However I can not say for sure that this sword is not some semi-fantasy 19th century item.

3rd December 2006, 09:50 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Ariel, I gave up complaining about this issue long ago...it's hopeless....

3rd December 2006, 10:23 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am not complaining, it's just strange that they could not find anybody better acquainted with the difference between Persian and Turkish scabbard or with Laz Bicagi. Perhaps, they may have a superb staff dealing with European weapons, but their "Islamic" knowledge is questionable.

3rd December 2006, 10:58 PM	#10
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The question is - do they _want_ to better identify what they sell ? I have worked with numerous dealers and most of the time they blatantly ignored my suggestions, with an exception of some simple things, like identifying the material from which the weapon's decorations are made (gold, silver, ivory). I guess it is to some extent benefitial to dealers to be as vague as possible, meaning that every buyer would have the ability to see in the item what he wants to see.

4th December 2006, 08:29 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	My wife calls us "Geeks with swords".