Ultimate swordfighting - GATKA

[Radu Transylvanicus]

I developed an amazing reverence to the art I knew nothing before accidentaly bumping into it last year, the Sikh martial art of GATKA. I would refrain on commenting it since I am no expert but I invite you to watch this video involving some of the most amazing weapon play I know, so animate and real. You get to see action with talwars, katars, khandas, firangis, khandjars, maces, spears, shields and others. Its a unique occasion for most of us to ever see this arms to real use. I suspect many edged weapons that ended in Forumites hands might originate here.
Most part of the video has been tapped in southern California at a Sikh fest and in perfect legal and political peacefulness. No one I hope would interprete this in any offensive way, its pure tradition and sport. Sikhs are nor Muslims nor Hindus and somehow in today's society they always are confused with one or the other.
So click on the "BHAI CHARNAJIT JIT THANGSAL WALE" section, sit back and relax... With a little patience the "NIHANG SINGH" section will show you some amazing martial equestrian prowess at least similar to the Cossack...
Here is the link:
http://www.gatka.us/video.html

[drdavid]

Radu
there is some wild stuff on this, especially the work with the long metal ribbon (I am sure someone will know the name for this but it does not look like the most practical weapon in the armoury) and the small shield and sword play.

[fearn]

The long metal ribbon is probably a urumi/uremi--basically, think bandsaw blade with sword hilt, although it's sharpened, not toothed.

F

[Titus Pullo]

Great videos! There are a lot of Sikhs in Thailand, and I went to school with a lot of them, but I never really get to know how they actually fight. Thanks! I heard they use a weapon call chakra like in "Xena the warrior princess"...in Thai we call it chak, which basiucally mean round saws, like the ones you use to cut woods...and in Thai painting they look exactly like that.

[Titus Pullo]

Ouch! Watch out all you Celts! I heard some South American Indians tribes use bullet ants to test the of courage of teens who are being intiated into manhood! They basically put the ants to sleep and then hold the end of the ants' buts, where the stinger is, inside a mitten made of weaving plant fiber together. Now, the reason they called them bullet ants is because being stung by one of these is describe by many people as being shot by a gun. It will put you in the hospital, and these kids are supposed to put there hand in the mitten for 5 minutes with 50 or more of the ants' stinging them. These aren't fully mature kids either! In Thailand's history there are several chapters that tells of how villagers, who were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the invading Burmese army, that fought the Burmese until there were none left alive! They didn't want the children to be captured by them so they poisoned them, then go out to the battle. There must be, at the most, a couple thousand villagers against 20, 000 to 30, 000 Burmese soldiers! All fought the brave fight, the men, women, and even old people! Yes, Thai people got balls! [laugh!]

[Rick]

Hi Titus , have you seen The legend of Suriyothai yet ?

[Titus Pullo]

Yes, I have! That was a cool movie, and I've got the DVD.

[Yustas]

If yous interested in curved sword fighting technique-you must check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuP2svZx-7Q

Real Ukrainian cossacks style. The muslims can have a break.)

[ariel]

With all due respect, this is a clumsy mix of a beginner-level Tae Kwon Do with a generic two-sword dance.
There was no martial arts system in Russia or Ukraine, and the first approximation of it, Sambo, which is an abbreviation of Samooborona bez oruzhiya ( self-defence witout a weapon) was developed in the 1930-1940s as an amalgam of several "Eastern" systems. BTW, President Putin has a Master's Rank in Sambo and, during his visit to Japan several years ago, was technically defeated by a 12 yo girl who practiced Ju-Do.
What we see in the movie clip is a modern fantasy.
Ukrainian Cossacks were a splendid cavalry force but nothing more than that. Nothing to be ashamed of, but there is no need to invent a fable.
The Muslims have nothing to worry about.

[Rivkin]

The destruction of soviet union has witnessed the rise of many forms of nazism - mostly russian, ukranian, turkoman and even a communist one. Each of these groups was determined to find some "ancient" culture, some great ariano-iranic root (with an exception of turks obviously) and some ancient warrior codes. Here we have a result - completely bogus fighting systems. But these guys are well trained so it looks good.

[LabanTayo]

I have been admiring Gatka and its practioners for a while now. I really respect the fact that they kept their traditions and art form pure. Especially when it comes to sparring. As with most martial arts, including Filipino, when the sparring gear is on, the art goes right out the door. I really appreciate that they are still using art and form when fighting. Thats what make the martial arts beautiful. The Gatka people are just like Kalaripayit, in that, they keep those crazy weapons alive by passing down to the generations the real art form of it.
Kudos to all of them!!!!

[katana]

More Gatka... on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post37205

[Yustas]

Unfortunately, i cannot agree with Ariel on this case.
Staring from Scythians and sarmats, who whooped Goth’s and roman's backs,(Atilla and company ) through Rus Kyivienne (Київська Русь) with knyaz Svyatoslav the Conqueror who defeataed Khozars kaganat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatoslav_I_of_Kiev
( By the way, he had old warriors iroquese style haircut-чуб, оселедець) to Cossacks republic. All of this was happening on current Ukraine's territory. Great warriors, with great military traditions have place in Easter Europen history.Talking about cossacks. I think everyone knows about Ukrainian cossack dance-"hopak" with all incredible jumps, kicks and turns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopak
This was the way to keep training and movements alive under Tsar's regime, when all Ukrainian was prohibited. Same story continued in USSR times, when communists where trying to make all people same and all different nations to become russins.
Thanks God this evil empire collapsed and free countries started to rediscover they national heritage. There is a loot great books in Ukraine about Slavic fighting styles, there are great people in the history (Ivan Piddubnyi) Unfortunately they are not that hugely promoted in Western world. For example, why American's take Capoeira, or Philipino or Islamic martial art's seriously, but disrespect Ukrainian, Russian, or Bellorussian styles?
Just because we do not have this huge PR and advertising?
If anyone want to see a little more-here is different video with English translation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huKyHxHi-04

P.S. Sorry for my grammar and enthusiasm.

[katana]

[/QUOTE]P.S. Sorry for my grammar and enthusiasm.[/QUOTE]

YOU should NEVER apologise for Enthusiasm

[ariel]

I do not doubt the fighting abilities of Ukrainian Cossacks (Zaporozhskaya Sech), and fully appreciate the originality of the Ukrainian culture including "hopak". However, the facts are incontrovertible: there was never a specialized Slavic martial arts system in the sense of Japanese, Chinese, Filippine, or Indian. Ivan Poddubny was a superb professional wrestler, a World Champion, and Ukrainians are right to be proud of him. However, he was a Greco-Roman wrestler, and not a practitioner of a (mythical) "Ukrainian" style.
One can ask a question why the martial arts systems employing legs and feet for striking all come from Asia ( with the possible exception of Capoeira), but that would be another discussion. Even French boxing owes its origins to Asian techniques brought from the Far East.
Enthusiasm is good, but one should stay within the realm of factual knowledge. Each culture has something unique and no culture should claim universal coverage. This is the beauty and the greatness of the human race. Germany produced the best composers in the world, but never had a major painter. Good enough for me.

[Rivkin]

Dear Yustas,

Your post greatly depicts all the problems with "ukranian" fighting styles - you have no idea which weapons cossacks used even 300 years ago, but somehow fighting moves of sarmats, scythians and ancient slavs is a common knowledge. Even the borders of alanic and khazaric tribes is a highly disputed issue, never mind the weapons they used, yet somehow one can see in hopak the sparkle of early arian pride.

Concerning "islamic" and other martial styles, they have often the same problems - a lot of them started when a bunch of ultra-nationalistic kids suddenly "discovered" ancient fighting traditions (concerning how the discovery was made they usually refer to some guru who lives on the island who somehow "inherited" this tradition from ancient Arians).

First of all, all Steppe fighting styles included horsemanship and the use of weapons from the horseback. But horses are not too common in modern cities, so martial arts "experts" simply skipped this most important part of original Steppe warfare traditions. Most of them also skipped such paramountly important weapons as long spear (too uncomfortable to train in Dojo), bow (again not good for cities, plus too complex), muskets (we are _martial_ artists not reenactors) and so on, and so on. Result is good for nationalism, but bad for history.

[Yustas]

Mr Rivkin,
I can assure you, that my knowledge of cossack weapons is greater than you think. An a questions in another thread was about sabres only.
To make long story short-here is a stand with display of most of cossack weapons from few hundred years ago.

http://www.museummilitary.com/?p=10&s=16

Question, is it bad to love your country and culture?
And i'm surprised that it turned in to personal offence. I thought people here are more friendly and open minded.

[Andrew]

Everyone cool down, please. Immediately.

Let's remember this forum is visited by folks from different cultures, speaking different languages.

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Yustas

Unfortunately they are not that hugely promoted in Western world. For example, why American's take Capoeira, or Philipino or Islamic martial art's seriously, but disrespect Ukrainian, Russian, or Bellorussian styles?
Just because we do not have this huge PR and advertising?

Seeing at how japanese Koryu are butchered, considering how many new
styles pop-ups everywhere, putting into a pinch of ninja craps and
all the business related stuffs, I feel that you're not so unlucky in having
few advertising.
Business ruins traditions.

[Rivkin]

I am not against loving one's country. However putting scythians, sarmatians, Svyatoslav and Attile into one cauldron has nothing to do with love. Concerning language - I understand ukranian well enough (I would guess that Ariel even speaks it. Or you speak belorrussian ?).
I am sorry if I was too harsh in my writings, but I had too much experience with RNE. The people decided that they don't want viking-ruled slavs obtaining their Kiev statehood in the second half of first millenium, they want "Arian" history stemming from scythians, Attila and god knows what, all put together. "Arian" boxing, "Russian" wrestling, "ancient slavic warrior" traditions. When asked how they know any of these authentic, they would blame jewish government for destroying any information about true "russian" fighting schools and refer to some gurus, who "inherited" this knowledge of ancient rus. How these guru "inherited" the knowledge and why there are no manuals ever printed until XXth century on all these super-historic stuff, these were the questions they never asked.
There are a lot of interesting things about cossacks and their warfare. There is a lot of interesting about ukranian history. But what fighting techiques unite Poddubny and Attila, remains a mistery to me.

[Yustas]

FYI i speak fluently Ukrainian, Polish, Russian and English. Understand most other slavic languages ( like Belorussian, Serbian, Slovak)
I din't say a word about Arian's, jews, or gurus. I don't know what they have to do with it.
My historical reference was necessary to prove that Ukraine has great military culture and heritage. Atilla, Svyatoslav Sahaydachyi have one thing in common-they are ancestors of Ukrainian people. And I don't like people's sarcasm concerning ability of Ukrainins to develope their own martial art. I don't think we are any worse than Japanese, Chinese, Brasilians, Turkish, native Americans, or any other nation in the world.
Nice to know ,my fellow countrymen are here.

[Yustas]

By the way,
any information about Gatka school in Chicago?

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Yustas

FYI i speak fluently Ukrainian, Polish, Russian and English. Understand most other slavic languages ( like Belorussian, Serbian, Slovak)

Yustas:

Your language skills will be most welcome here I'm sure. We often have issues of translation and I hope you will be able to help out our members in that regard.

Cheers,

Ian.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Yustas

FYI i speak fluently Ukrainian, Polish, Russian and English. Understand most other slavic languages ( like Belorussian, Serbian, Slovak)
I din't say a word about Arian's, jews, or gurus. I don't know what they have to do with it.
My historical reference was necessary to prove that Ukraine has great military culture and heritage. Atilla, Svyatoslav Sahaydachyi have one thing in common-they are ancestors of Ukrainian people. And I don't like people's sarcasm concerning ability of Ukrainins to develope their own martial art. I don't think we are any worse than Japanese, Chinese, Brasilians, Turkish, native Americans, or any other nation in the world.
Nice to know ,my fellow countrymen are here.

Yustas,
Nobody here tries to demean Ukrainians. The same is true about Brits, Poles, Native Americans, Jews, Khevsoors etc, etc, etc.
Again, every nation has its roster of achievements and it would be plain silly to compare the relative magnitude of each: just like arguing which paint was the most important in a large picture.
It so happened that Central Europeans never developed a distinct style of unarmed combat. True not only about Ukrainians, bur also about Czechs, Poles, Hungarians, Germans etc, etc. Hopak is only a dance; kudos to the modern Ukrainian practitioners of Tae Kwon Do ( or some other Asian system) for utilizing Hopak's rhythm and jumps to teach their students . On the other hand, Hopak was never a martial art on its own. I fully agree with you about the benefits of Ukrainian independence, and God bless you!. On the other hand, neither in the Tsarist Russia nor in the USSR was there any attempt to ban hopak or to smother any martial aspirations of the Ukrainians. The language was severely restricted, that's true, but Gogol's "Taras Bulba", the ultimate martial epic of the Ukrainian Cossacks, was a required reading in schools. There was never any attempt to hide or to ban any martial arts system of any nationality. This is the reason why I viewed the "Hopak" movie and the commentary without much enthusiasm. National pride is good and appropriate but Jingoism based on invented claims and on fanning "national superiority" usually leads to pretty bad things. It is not the matter whether Ukrainians are "worse" than Japanese or Koreans; they just developed different aspects of culture. They were great horsemen; Japanese were not. Are Japanese worse?
In short: I challenge you to find me a single manual of native Ukrainian martial arts system, preferably involving leg kicks, published before 1980. You can go back as far as you wish.
BTW: Did you see my answer to you about Ukrainian sabers? Same story.

[Battara]

Amazing videos. Those with double swords remind me of 2 things:

1. the part of the Mahabarata where Shiva shows up on the battlefield in a frenzy cutting through men like a food processer.

2. sinawalli in FMA using double stick/sword routines.

[Sikh_soldier]

Hi all,

basically the sikh martial art revolves around fighting more than one person, (as sikhs were always outnumbered in battle)
gatka, is not considered the full martial art but part martial and part demonstration.
it will get one perfectly ready for the truely authentic art of the sikhs which is Shastar Vidya (science of weaponary)
the sikhs have a whole granth (bible/text) on warfare/strategy etc.
shastar vidya is alot more to the point (no pun intended) and unpretty, gatka is more common and commericial it is hard to find a shastar vidya practicioner.
Shastar vidya is mainly about ending a battle very quickly (not spending much time on each person) however gatka is very useful in preparation (flexibility, sword control, speed, stamina and hand eye co-ordination)

here is another more in depth video of gatka
http://gurmatstudies.com/gatkaonline...apevolume2.wmv