Yataghan or bayonet?

Emanuel · 13th November 2006, 11:11 PM

Hello,

I wanted to bid on this yataghan but the seller ended the listing early: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...0447&rd=1&rd=1

It has a yataghan hilt, some sort of European cross-guard and a yataghan blade with a fuller that makes it look like the French Chassepot bayonet. Any ideas as to its origin?

Emanuel

Rick · 13th November 2006, 11:21 PM

Looks like a rehilted bayonet.

Ian · 14th November 2006, 01:37 AM

Hi Manolo:

I agree with Rick -- probably a rehilted bayonet.

When I saw your sword my first thought was the British P1856/1858 bayonet with the "button" finials on the guard. Although close, your blade has a T-spine, the fuller on your blade is wrong, and your sword seems to have a wider and less tapering blade than the British P1856 bayonet.

Unfortunately my bayonet references are buried deep in my study and I can't access them easily -- not a current passion.

But I will keep looking. In the meanwhile, here is a picture of a British P1856:

http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/brit1856.htm

Ian.

Emanuel · 14th November 2006, 03:09 AM

Rick, Ian, I thank you both.

You confirm my thoughts of a bayonet. I was unaware of the British patterns however, and only knew the French ones

. It seems many countries adopted this yataghan-type blade.

Thanks for the link Ian, it's quite helpful...I'll start my own research into these bayonets as well, they're damn beautiful I think.
Now why would anyone rehilt these in yataghan fashion? Was this a common practice at some point, or is it just to deceive unweary buyers?

Regards,
Emanuel

TVV · 14th November 2006, 03:46 AM

Could it be a Martini-Henry M1871 bayonet? The Ottomans were armed with this model during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I could not find a good picture of this bayonet and hopefully DD can help. What I can say with certainty is that it is neither a Chassepot, nor a Snider bayonet, nor a bayonet for the 1874 Martini-Peabody rifle.

Ian · 14th November 2006, 04:43 AM

Michael:

AKAIK the only Martini bayonet that had a recurved "yataghan" style blade is P1860, which seems to be a direct descendant of the P1856/P1858 that I mentioned above. The P1860 was certainly adapted for use on the Martini-Henry Mk I M1871. Again, the same features that I mentioned above for the P1856/P1858 are different from Manolo's sword.

There is a nice web site on Martini bayonets here: http://www.martinihenry.com/bayonets.htm

ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Could it be a Martini-Henry M1871 bayonet? The Ottomans were armed with this model during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I could not find a good picture of this bayonet and hopefully DD can help. What I can say with certainty is that it is neither a Chassepot, nor a Snider bayonet, nor a bayonet for the 1874 Martini-Peabody rifle.

tom hyle · 18th November 2006, 10:45 PM

It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

not2sharp · 20th November 2006, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

I agree with Tom; this looks like a purpose made short sword. Just about every Western power made some of these during the 19th century. The US had an 1870s Coast Guard dress sword with a yatagan blade, and countless variations were also produced for verteran organizations, social groups, and private purchase.

Here is one that originally sold as a souvenir at the US Columbian Exposition.

n2s

Robert · 20th November 2006, 05:14 AM

I'm not sure that I would dismiss the bayonet idea. I've seen a few but not to many of the swords like not2sharp has posted and non of them have had the T shaped spine like on the one posted by Manolo. I have an unidentified bayonet with a T spine and a bronze grip and guard that has a blade almost identical to the one in the first post. I will take pictures and measurements and post them tomorrow as it is getting late and I hear bed calling me.

Robert

Robert · 20th November 2006, 05:16 PM

OK, I must have given the one I was talking about to my Grandson but here is another. Total length is 27-3/8" with a 22-1/2" blade. This one has an iron guard and brass grip. One thing I meant to mention is that a lot of the small swords that were made for the World Colombian Exposition (in particular the Guards swords) were made by the Ames Sword Company and were made from left over bayonet blades. Hope this helps.

Robert

not2sharp · 20th November 2006, 11:02 PM

Here is a Spanish model 1881 machete sidearm - which also had a yataghan blade.

n2s

tom hyle · 4th December 2006, 06:16 PM

Yes, old bayonets are rehilted (believe me, I know; I do it), but that is not reason to leap instantly to such conclusion for any dagger or sword with a blade similar, or even identical, to a certain bayonet, as there is the other thing and it still goes on, even (check a US cutler named Ontario and their spec plus knives). On another note, the original sword has a cross-section like no bayonet I've seen; certainly not like the one seen here. The blade is T-section AND has an additional fuller; the Chassepot and other similar bayonets (including interestingly some Turkish ones) has IMITATED a raised/applied-spine and a reinforced edge with a flat-bottomed fuller; they have only one groove; not the more complex situation seen here. I don't think this is even a blade that was ALSO used for bayonets; it's just a sword, IMHO; no sign of anything else.
BTW, I love the ferule, which obviates the need for a rivet holding down the bottom tip of the scales, the hole for which weakens so many blades (though this one still has a rivet closer than neccessary to the guard). This practice seems to have gone extinct(?).
I love the Spainish army; every thing is a machete

TVV · 9th December 2006, 07:54 AM

Now how about this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019

I do not like it, but this is beside the point. I do not think this was ever a bayonet.

Emanuel · 9th December 2006, 03:04 PM

This last one is indeed ugly! It looks like a very badly bent bayonet to me. Look at this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...black+yataghan
The comments suggested a Turkish bayonet being altered to resemble the Laz Bicagi...perhaps that's the case in the above auction.

Regards,
Emanuel

13th November 2006, 11:11 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Yataghan or bayonet? Hello, I wanted to bid on this yataghan but the seller ended the listing early: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...0447&rd=1&rd=1 It has a yataghan hilt, some sort of European cross-guard and a yataghan blade with a fuller that makes it look like the French Chassepot bayonet. Any ideas as to its origin? Emanuel Attached Images

14th November 2006, 01:37 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Looks like a rehilted bayonet Hi Manolo: I agree with Rick -- probably a rehilted bayonet. When I saw your sword my first thought was the British P1856/1858 bayonet with the "button" finials on the guard. Although close, your blade has a T-spine, the fuller on your blade is wrong, and your sword seems to have a wider and less tapering blade than the British P1856 bayonet. Unfortunately my bayonet references are buried deep in my study and I can't access them easily -- not a current passion. But I will keep looking. In the meanwhile, here is a picture of a British P1856: http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/brit1856.htm Ian.

20th November 2006, 05:16 PM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK, I must have given the one I was talking about to my Grandson but here is another. Total length is 27-3/8" with a 22-1/2" blade. This one has an iron guard and brass grip. One thing I meant to mention is that a lot of the small swords that were made for the World Colombian Exposition (in particular the Guards swords) were made by the Ames Sword Company and were made from left over bayonet blades. Hope this helps. Robert Attached Images

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13th November 2006, 11:21 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Looks like a rehilted bayonet.

14th November 2006, 03:09 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Rick, Ian, I thank you both. You confirm my thoughts of a bayonet. I was unaware of the British patterns however, and only knew the French ones . It seems many countries adopted this yataghan-type blade. Thanks for the link Ian, it's quite helpful...I'll start my own research into these bayonets as well, they're damn beautiful I think. Now why would anyone rehilt these in yataghan fashion? Was this a common practice at some point, or is it just to deceive unweary buyers? Regards, Emanuel

14th November 2006, 03:46 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Could it be a Martini-Henry M1871 bayonet? The Ottomans were armed with this model during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78. I could not find a good picture of this bayonet and hopefully DD can help. What I can say with certainty is that it is neither a Chassepot, nor a Snider bayonet, nor a bayonet for the 1874 Martini-Peabody rifle.

18th November 2006, 10:45 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It is probably not a rehilted bayonet (another over-attributed source) but an original European sword made with a similar blade; even if identical to a bayonet blade, such variations were quite common as new goods, and are often seen amongs European cutlery. Such items were produced for military and civilian/private-issue markets. It appears to be Eastern/central European; I'd suggest Austria were it not for the highly developed ears. If we've never seen this individual before, I remember having simialr comments on something a LOT like it; one could do a search; something may have been discovered in that discussion; my library computer time is running short..............

20th November 2006, 05:14 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I'm not sure that I would dismiss the bayonet idea. I've seen a few but not to many of the swords like not2sharp has posted and non of them have had the T shaped spine like on the one posted by Manolo. I have an unidentified bayonet with a T spine and a bronze grip and guard that has a blade almost identical to the one in the first post. I will take pictures and measurements and post them tomorrow as it is getting late and I hear bed calling me. Robert

20th November 2006, 11:02 PM	#11
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Here is a Spanish model 1881 machete sidearm - which also had a yataghan blade. n2s

4th December 2006, 06:16 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, old bayonets are rehilted (believe me, I know; I do it), but that is not reason to leap instantly to such conclusion for any dagger or sword with a blade similar, or even identical, to a certain bayonet, as there is the other thing and it still goes on, even (check a US cutler named Ontario and their spec plus knives). On another note, the original sword has a cross-section like no bayonet I've seen; certainly not like the one seen here. The blade is T-section AND has an additional fuller; the Chassepot and other similar bayonets (including interestingly some Turkish ones) has IMITATED a raised/applied-spine and a reinforced edge with a flat-bottomed fuller; they have only one groove; not the more complex situation seen here. I don't think this is even a blade that was ALSO used for bayonets; it's just a sword, IMHO; no sign of anything else. BTW, I love the ferule, which obviates the need for a rivet holding down the bottom tip of the scales, the hole for which weakens so many blades (though this one still has a rivet closer than neccessary to the guard). This practice seems to have gone extinct(?). I love the Spainish army; every thing is a machete

9th December 2006, 07:54 AM	#13
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Now how about this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=019 I do not like it, but this is beside the point. I do not think this was ever a bayonet.

9th December 2006, 03:04 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	This last one is indeed ugly! It looks like a very badly bent bayonet to me. Look at this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...black+yataghan The comments suggested a Turkish bayonet being altered to resemble the Laz Bicagi...perhaps that's the case in the above auction. Regards, Emanuel