A Nice Takouba just finished on eBay....Euro blade? - Page 2

zalmoxis · 19th October 2006, 10:51 PM

I think there are no European maker marks on any Takouba because:
1. the tuaregs would have erase the marking and place antimagic symbols as they do in most.
2. The blades sold to the Tuareg would have been like the Kalashnikovs for Taliban's: they would be use to kill Europeans passing the desert, caravans with Venetian traders etc

Why would you want your blade to be recognize

Lew · 20th October 2006, 05:30 AM

Here is my takouba similar blade but with three fullers.

Lew

zalmoxis · 20th October 2006, 08:20 PM

It is very nice I think is a beginning of the 20th century one. If it has as you say a heavy blade it might be European. The Tuareg blade are very thin and flexible.
Do you agree with me that your nice sword is Bali? They had skilled blacksmiths capable to come up with that blade plus their swords are very rare and that would explain why I have never seen one.

Flavio · 20th October 2006, 08:27 PM

Hi guys, what do you think about this one? blade is european or african?

katana · 20th October 2006, 08:31 PM

Flavio nice Kaskara...IMHO the blade looks to be of local manufacture...the grinding marks would have been polished out in a Euro blade.

The fuller running down to the point may suggest the tip of the blade may have been broken off during its life.

Flavio · 20th October 2006, 08:35 PM

Hi katana, the grooves seems to be forged, not grinding. Anyway also to me the blade seems to be of local manufacture. Yes, could be that the blade was shortened.

Paul Digard · 22nd December 2006, 04:41 PM

Well what about this then? Two kaskaras (one mine, not pictured) and a Scottish basket hilt with near as dammit identical blades. Engraved decoration so similar I think they must be from the same source. Pictures and a little bit of input over on SFI.

1st posting

ELJay's input

Sorry for the myriad links to see all the pics. Unfortunately I lost the photos of mine in a computer crash, but it really is almost indistinguishable from the other two except for a greater degree of wear.

Anyway, not that I doubt Artzi & ElJay (too much

) but if these are North African made blades, how many did they produce to make it likely I'd see three within as many years? I can accept a Solingen cutler banging out industrial quantities of blades (witness the thousands of very similar JJ Runkel retailed Georgian military blades still around). Was bladesmithing in North Africa similarly grouped into a few large volume producers? I know shallow fullered blades struck with crescent moons are very common but perhaps naively, had imagined that every local smith would have his variant of the stamp.

Paul

Tim Simmons · 22nd December 2006, 07:52 PM

Sadly I cannot add a kaskara pic as I swapped the last one I had for two more rare Mahdist weapons. My observances have been that the half moons do vary. To me the basket hilt sword does have a European blade. The other indeed looks very similar but I would agree that it is probably made in Africa. I believe it is possible to discern a difference in the steel and the workmanship most obvious at the forte. Being able to handle the sword would be how oppinions were formed with confidence. I could also be wrong

.

Jeff D · 22nd December 2006, 10:20 PM

Hi Paul,

I have seen a number of German blades made for takobas, kaskaras and gurades mounted with baskethilts. I have been able to trace a couple back to where the two met. They were modern creations from parts. Your blade is a Kaskara blade. The snake is a Persian influence on these weapons, I don't know its significance. I would think it is unlikely that your blade and hilt started their life together.
I think the Oakeshott warning about medieval swords with kaskara features also applies to the modern swords as well.

Hope this helps.
Jeff

Paul Digard · 24th December 2006, 08:18 AM

Thanks Jeff.

Just to clarify, I don't own the basket hilt. I thought about buying it because my first reaction was that it was genuine and I loved the match between it and the kaskara I do have. Then the doubts started...

Happy holidays all.

Paul

20th October 2006, 05:30 AM	#32
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is my takouba similar blade but with three fullers. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 20th October 2006 at 05:42 AM.

20th October 2006, 08:27 PM	#34
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi guys, what do you think about this one? blade is european or african? Attached Images

22nd December 2006, 04:41 PM	#37
Paul Digard Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Three nearly identical blades Well what about this then? Two kaskaras (one mine, not pictured) and a Scottish basket hilt with near as dammit identical blades. Engraved decoration so similar I think they must be from the same source. Pictures and a little bit of input over on SFI. 1st posting ELJay's input Sorry for the myriad links to see all the pics. Unfortunately I lost the photos of mine in a computer crash, but it really is almost indistinguishable from the other two except for a greater degree of wear. Anyway, not that I doubt Artzi & ElJay (too much ) but if these are North African made blades, how many did they produce to make it likely I'd see three within as many years? I can accept a Solingen cutler banging out industrial quantities of blades (witness the thousands of very similar JJ Runkel retailed Georgian military blades still around). Was bladesmithing in North Africa similarly grouped into a few large volume producers? I know shallow fullered blades struck with crescent moons are very common but perhaps naively, had imagined that every local smith would have his variant of the stamp. Paul Last edited by Paul Digard; 22nd December 2006 at 11:40 PM. Reason: typo

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19th October 2006, 10:51 PM	#31
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	I think there are no European maker marks on any Takouba because: 1. the tuaregs would have erase the marking and place antimagic symbols as they do in most. 2. The blades sold to the Tuareg would have been like the Kalashnikovs for Taliban's: they would be use to kill Europeans passing the desert, caravans with Venetian traders etc Why would you want your blade to be recognize

20th October 2006, 08:20 PM	#33
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	It is very nice I think is a beginning of the 20th century one. If it has as you say a heavy blade it might be European. The Tuareg blade are very thin and flexible. Do you agree with me that your nice sword is Bali? They had skilled blacksmiths capable to come up with that blade plus their swords are very rare and that would explain why I have never seen one.

20th October 2006, 08:31 PM	#35
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Flavio nice Kaskara...IMHO the blade looks to be of local manufacture...the grinding marks would have been polished out in a Euro blade. The fuller running down to the point may suggest the tip of the blade may have been broken off during its life.

20th October 2006, 08:35 PM	#36
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi katana, the grooves seems to be forged, not grinding. Anyway also to me the blade seems to be of local manufacture. Yes, could be that the blade was shortened.

22nd December 2006, 07:52 PM	#38
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Sadly I cannot add a kaskara pic as I swapped the last one I had for two more rare Mahdist weapons. My observances have been that the half moons do vary. To me the basket hilt sword does have a European blade. The other indeed looks very similar but I would agree that it is probably made in Africa. I believe it is possible to discern a difference in the steel and the workmanship most obvious at the forte. Being able to handle the sword would be how oppinions were formed with confidence. I could also be wrong .

22nd December 2006, 10:20 PM	#39
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Paul, I have seen a number of German blades made for takobas, kaskaras and gurades mounted with baskethilts. I have been able to trace a couple back to where the two met. They were modern creations from parts. Your blade is a Kaskara blade. The snake is a Persian influence on these weapons, I don't know its significance. I would think it is unlikely that your blade and hilt started their life together. I think the Oakeshott warning about medieval swords with kaskara features also applies to the modern swords as well. Hope this helps. Jeff

24th December 2006, 08:18 AM	#40
Paul Digard Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 13	Thanks Jeff. Just to clarify, I don't own the basket hilt. I thought about buying it because my first reaction was that it was genuine and I loved the match between it and the kaskara I do have. Then the doubts started... Happy holidays all. Paul