Balatos -- swords with balls

[Bill M]

From the Island of Nias, off the northern coast of Sumatra, Indonesia come these wonderful swords. The ball holds amulets,talismans and special ju-ju for the warrior.

I got the latest one (feautured) from Artzi because I really like the huge handle.

Need to do a little repair work on the ball, but I have some boar tusks and maybe add in some croc and tiger teeth.

I also really like the distinctive shields. Have pictures of the warriors with shields somewhere and will try to find and post them.

Comments?

[RhysMichael]

Isn't the ball made from boars tusks or do I have that wrong ?

[Rick]

Should you really be modifying this sword Bill ?
I'd advise against it myself .

This brings up the eternal question ; when to 'restore' and just what exactly is 'restoration' ?

In any other facet of the world of antiques you would be lowering or destroying the value of this piece .

I'd advise against 'enhancing' the ball; it goes against the purity of the piece.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Isn't the ball made from boars tusks or do I have that wrong ?

Boars' tusks are the usual main pieces, but often also have croc teeth. Some have tiger. I saw a very good one with all croc teeth. The seller turned down $5,000 for it. It was nice, but I certainly would never have paid that much for it.

Usually you don't have any of the "magic" stuff in the ball when you get one. The one on the far left is still intact. It also has a few croc teeth.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Rick

Should you really be modifying this sword Bill ?
I'd advise against it myself .

This brings up the eternal question ; when to 'restore' and just what exactly is 'restoration' ?

In any other facet of the world of antiques you would be lowering or destroying the value of this piece .

I'd advise against 'enhancing' the ball; it goes against the purity of the piece.

Hi Rick,

The eternal dilemma. Restore? Leave alone in the "as found state?"

I try to find out about the culture and how the orignial owners cared for their pieces. Recently I read that the Moro did not keep their battle blades bright because reflections might give away their positions. They did keep them clean and ALWAYS sharp!

To have an old scabbard and/or hilt is a sign of neglect and disrespect to a Javanese keris.

I have a silver sword, a "temple," "Newar" or "Nair." This was used by the Theyyam of Kerala / Malabar (india) in trance rituals to gods and goddesses. The swords and other accoutrements were kept in high polish. Not to do so would be to disprespect the goddess and you REALLY don't want to do that!

So I am cleaning away the patina/neglect to bring it back to its pristine condition. I do admit that this hurt me at first, then it seemed that the sword breathed a sigh of relief and enjoyment at being clean again.

I used to believe in the "Golden Rule." But now I am working on the "Platinum Rule:" Do unto others as they would be done unto."

As long as I can follow the practices other cultures used to respect their pieces, I will do my best -- within reason -- I am NOT feeding my panabases weekly blood. That is going further than I can handle.

So, to add teeth or not? I'll need to spend some meditation time with the new balato. WWND? What would Nias Do?

[VANDOO]

VERY NICE SWORDS BILL!!
IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE NOT TOO MANY BOARS TUSKS MISSING PERHAPS JUST PUTTING THOSE THAT ARE THERE BACK IN PLACE AND PERHAPS TIGHTENING THEM DOWN A BIT MIGHT COME CLOSE TO FIXING IT. IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE OPENED IT UP TO TAKE OUT THE MEDICINE PACKET IN THE CENTER BEFORE SELLING IT. WHAT SORT OF RELIGION OR BELIEFS DO THEY HAVE ON NIAS IT CAN'T BE ISLAM AS IT WOULD SURLY FORBID HAVEING ANYTHING TO DO WITH PIGS.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

VERY NICE SWORDS BILL!!
IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE NOT TOO MANY BOARS TUSKS MISSING PERHAPS JUST PUTTING THOSE THAT ARE THERE BACK IN PLACE AND PERHAPS TIGHTENING THEM DOWN A BIT MIGHT COME CLOSE TO FIXING IT. IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE OPENED IT UP TO TAKE OUT THE MEDICINE PACKET IN THE CENTER BEFORE SELLING IT. WHAT SORT OF RELIGION OR BELIEFS DO THEY HAVE ON NIAS IT CAN'T BE ISLAM AS IT WOULD SURLY FORBID HAVEING ANYTHING TO DO WITH PIGS.

Indonesian Islamic religion is very different from the middle east, especially Iraq and Iran. It is a thin veneer over the old animistic culture.

Islam is practiced and its laws enforced very differently in different cultures. The middle east version seems the most restrictive and severe,but, as is usual with religion, each culture feels its version is the correct one.

Can you imagine the Javanese with their emphasis on magic, offerings to various entities, existing in Iraq?

[katana]

What a fantastic collection......I think the talisman additions to ethnographic weapons of many cultures is truly facinating.
I wonder whether talisman from your defeated foe would be 'transfered' to the 'victor's' weapon..... to gain his 'magic' ?

[utami]

Balatos is my favourite indonesia weapon, so pretty and yet so sharp
well bill, you have a treasure and valuable collection.

to vandoo and other, most nias is cristian. the first missionarist in nias around 1860, and in 1890 more than 700 family became cristian. and now days some people in nias is cristian and some other is islam.

i've been searching for balato maker, since last year but can't found one

[David]

Wow, beautiful sword! I especially love the intricately carved hilt on this one.
If it were me Bill, i would take Barry's advice, restore what's there, but don't add to it.
Great photo. I really dig those crazy battle vests they wear.

[Dajak]

Hi they look nice but how old you think these are

[utami]

Bill you have 4 balato's, Nice collection

i do agree with david and Barry's advice, " restore what's there, but don't add to it." Your the current balato already a piece of beauty

imho, seem to me the pieces is early 19th

[Cyclura99]

NIAS Swords are NOT OLD as in 19th c ... Not even close .....



Cy

[Dajak]

I have to agree with Cyclura99 none of these Nias swords is before 1950

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

NIAS Swords are NOT OLD as in 19th c ... Not even close .....



Cy

Hi Chris,

Good to see you posting here. Perhaps you would care to share some of your expertise in Nias artifacts. I am sure that the people on this Forum would like an in-depth post on Balato and other Nias weapons and artifacts.

I find the Balatos of marginal interest, but I'd bet that you have some outstanding examples. Why don't you post a few?

How are the lizards?

Warmest regards,
Bill

[Cyclura99]

I do not see the point of buying and or collectiong FAKE, REPRODUCTION and or REPLACEMENT - Dance swords - that were made late 1950-80's made for the Nias dances for the vistiting tourists .

I thought the point of collecting ethnographic weapons was to aquire the best examples of a specific culture.That were used in a tribal context used tribaly 19th c or very early 20th c examples when the NIAS culture in the south was still present ie headhuting was still occuring , and all other aspects of the culture.


As far as posting pictures maybe but I am thru sending pictures of items for sale when all one wants to do is picture collect. Or get others opinions before one can make a decsion on if one should buy the item or not.In my opinion if a person has to get opinions of others inorder to buy an item that person does not belong in the game of collecting .

Just my humble opinion.

Cy

[Bill M]

[B]Still you say, but you do not show. IF you have such knowledge and such good pieces, why do you not post them, and some knowledge and educate us instead of this kind of posting?

And if you do not like what is here, why don't you just pass on down the salad bar?

But how are your lizards? Got any pictures?

[Dajak]

Hi Bill why you don't take a few books that shows old Nias Warriors
first you can see on the pics that the size off the balls are a lot bigger
and look like basket's instead off balls
And on the old pics from before 1900 you will notice that they use tiger crocodile and shark teeth no pig teeth

Take a look in an museum data base

I think that is the point Cyclura99 wanna make knowledge is very important
than what somebody thinks is good that is why it is hard to see good quality these days there is a lot fake on the market todays and if people see to much off this stuf they think that is the good quality the prices for real old Nias sword is very high on the moment and almost not for sale but you can buy at the moment a lot off nias belato's whit no sign off use on the handle
and scabbard for cheap prices better get 1 real piece than maybe 5 fake one s that is the piont what Cyclura99 want s to tell

don't take it to personally

regards Ben

[Cyclura99]

IF I have the Knowledge?????????? Let me see well I was able to buy two Authentic 19th Nias swords you passed on at the Skinners Auction.You were there and probably had them in your hands . I just had poor jpegs pictures to make a decsion ...What was your excuse oh those do not interest me? I thought the point was to Buy the real things not FAKES....

I am a collector part of me wants to post what is real authentic objects the other part says why educate the competion ie other collectors . That might be selfish of me but I think all real collectors are a bit selfish.

As for a so called collector who is really a picture collector I do not have time for those people . They have to have others ok there stuff to make them feel good at what they buy.

Thanks for leaving the real authentic stuff to the real collectors who can make up there minds on what they collect in minutes ,rather than waiting for a e-mail replies from several others who tell you what to BUY.Thats Fact not FICTION .

I do not need to post pictures on this forum to validate my collection or my knowledge.

Advice:
Read a book study what you collect before you collect it helps ... No more help...

CY

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Bill why you don't take a few books that shows old Nias Warriors
first you can see on the pics that the size off the balls are a lot bigger
and look like basket's instead off balls
And on the old pics from before 1900 you will notice that they use tiger crocodile and shark teeth no pig teeth

Take a look in an museum data base

I think that is the point Cyclura99 wanna make knowledge is very important
than what somebody thinks is good that is why it is hard to see good quality these days there is a lot fake on the market todays and if people see to much off this stuf they think that is the good quality the prices for real old Nias sword is very high on the moment and almost not for sale but you can buy at the moment a lot off nias belato's whit no sign off use on the handle
and scabbard for cheap prices better get 1 real piece than maybe 5 fake one s that is the piont what Cyclura99 wants to tell

don't take it to personally

regards Ben

Ben,

Thank you for the well written response. You have a good attitude and are, of course, correct. Knowledge is very important.

Is a balato made for dance 50 years ago fake? One made 25 years ago, fake? One made for dance 200 years ago, fake? Was it made in a basement in California?

If the workmanship is good and you like it, so what?

And in some instances I do go for absolutely correct pieces. But often I get things I just like. I admit that I have only been collecting a few years. I don't have in-depth knowledge of a lot of areas. I buy what I like. I am the one who has to live with them.

I have a few books and am willing and ready to buy more. I like "Nias Tribal Treasures." Can you recommend others? Museums? I am planning a jaunt to Indonesia and Malaysia. Where can I learn more?

I also have an issue of National Geographics that has some early Nias pictures. I like the armor also.

A good friend and exceptionally knowledgable dealer in California had a wonderful Nias armor, shield, Balato, etc that he sold as an ensemble. Unfortunately he had just sold it when I found out about it. I would have bought it. Neat setup. Great display!

My issue with Chris / Cy is his belligerent attitude. I never claimed anything about these balatos except I like the ones I have. Never made an age claim. Never said they were used for dance, war, headhunting, or chopping lettuce.

I just said that I like them. If he dosen't like them I suggest that he move on down the salad bar until he finds something that he does like. But I don't think it is proper to criticise like he just did in an open forum.

Private email is more appropriate,

One of mine came from Artzi Yoram of Oriental Arms, very respected dealer. Artzi said it was "early 20th or late 19th c. I don't know much about Chris, but under the circumstances I'd take Artzi's provenance. Artzi has been around longer than most of us and really knows his pieces. He is also a gentleman and a dear friend. His prices are fair.

Maybe my Balato are are more recent, so what? I like them.

I have seen one that Chris now has in his collection at the Skinners Auction in Boston. If I had wanted it, it would be now in my collection. It sold for $1500 or so. It was a nice piece, but no real juice to me. Possibly more authentic than mine, I don't know. I will not say bad things about it. It looked OK to me.

IF Chris knows so much, share it with the rest of us. It is easy to say, "I know more than you, but I don't need to tell it."

All I am suggesting is that he put his information on the Forum. Share the knowledge.

And relax a little. Life is too short to use a lot of capital letters.

[Cyclura99]

Some people just do not get it what is real and what is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHat is real is what was used in the days heads were hunted .., I can keep going on and on and I think I made my point.
I can pick your fakes apart and show you what is real and what is NOT.I just have a hard time when a person tries to pass of fake objects as real tribal weapons .I will go toe to toe with anyone one on here and to make my point as to what is real authentic and what is NOT with regards to NIAS weapons swords shield spears ect ect..

I must thank that your lack of knowledge when you did not buy the TWO REAL 19th c NIAS SWORDS when you had a chance.Thank you Bills lack of Knowledge.

Oh yes Artzi is a great guy and a great deal of knowledge your last Nias sword you bought from him was offered to me first and he stated it was mid-20th c let me see that makes it 1950 or later.

Get educated read a book go to a museum instead of asking others if this is ok to buy or is that ok to buy as in price ect.. Its insulting.It gets old.. Don't you think BILL
Cy

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

I am a collector part of me wants to post what is real authentic objects the other part says why educate the competion ie other collectors . That might be selfish of me but I think all real collectors are a bit selfish.CY

I think sharing knowledge is why we are here, and the fellowship that comes from that sharing.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but this is a Forum, right? I am here to learn and post pictures and share what I know. I do not see this world as limited in collectables. I certainly don't see my forum mates as competition.

Ethnographic weapons study is a great hobby. It should be fun. Fellowship. Sharing and learning. That is what I am here for.

And, yes, as many of you know -- I ask for help --- Many of you are far more knowledgeable than me. Many have great knowledge in a certain area. So I ask for help, and since I know the person is honest and knowledgeable, I factor that into my buying. I don't pretend to know everything about any area.

Usually I don't say who the dealer is and I NEVER reveal the names of people who help me. And I often buy from them. Some buy from me. We are one big happy family. And sometimes we gossip like old hens about what is happening, which dealers to avoid. Who has something one of us might like.


The bottom line here is that Cy / Chris sent me a lot of pictures of pieces I did not want. He is just angry and bitter.

Sorry Chris I guess we just did not connect. You have pieces you like that did not appeal to me. That's life. --- Moving down the salad bar now. I don't care to respond to this bitterness any more.

I also think that IF Chris has knowledge, he could share it. A lot of people could benefit. ---- IF he has knowledge and can present it with less bitterness. We will never know his truth unless he does.

Wasn't there someone here recently named "Willie," who said a lot and showed us nothing?

I have a Moro Kriss to stain, and some books to read. and some people to email.

Where is that "ignore" button?

[ariel]

Guys,
I do not collect these weapons and do not have a bone in the fight.
I agree with Cyclura99 that the only definition of a real sword is the one that was made for it's intended purpose: fighting. some have other definitions and I shall be the last person to talk them out of their misconceptions: collecting is such an idiosyncratic business that there is a place in it for every craze. If some people collect freshly-printed stamps, why would I argue with somebody collecting 50 year old swords? I try to collect really old swords as defined above. I do not always succeed, though since the "forces of evil" often outsmart me to the point of embarrassement, but each and all of us have been fooled. The price of learning....
On the other hand, I suggest that a big part of the fun of collecting is exchange of information, and here I am firmly in Bill's corner. Even though we all compete to a degree, I have seen a lot of cooperation and selflessness among the Forumites. That what makes this Forum pleasant. I would be uncomfortable withholding true information from a Forumite who asked for advice, even though this info might help him to outbid me in the future. We often mention politeness of our dscussions as a sine qua non. This Forum allows a lot of berth for jokes (occasionally off color) and for a "no holds barred" approach. However, attempts to humiliate a fellow Forumite are something we all should avoid.
My 5 cents worth (before the inflation and taxes )

[Rick]

I think this ugliness has gone far enough ; Cyclura, if you have an issue with Bill please deal with it out of forum .

This whole exchange IMO smacks of pettiness and personal conflict.

Cyclura, if you wish to help educate the other members feel free to do so in a pleasant way.

If you wish to simply attack Bill please do it on your own time.

[Cyclura99]

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT.

I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something.

If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking.

So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale .

If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos.

CY

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. CY

Cy, we would all love to see pictures of authentic old Nias swords; please do help to educate us; post them .

The personal business though is best kept between the individuals and off the forum .

I do not moderate this particular forum but since I am the ONLY moderator online at present; I feel that I must speak up for the sake of maintaining peace in the entire forum.

Rick

[David]

Cy, why on Earth would the moderators NOT allow you to post examples of your weapons? That's what people do here, post weapons, share information, teach AND learn. We ALL have something to share and a whole lot to learn.
As for you very obviously problem with Bill, you certainly need to air that out OFF FORUM. What ever your disagreement is, it doesn't belong here. Please treat people with respect in this space, regardless of your personal feelings.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT.

I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something.

If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking.

So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale .

If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos.

CY

You obviously have a personal issue with Bill. Frankly, I don't care if you do: I'm simply not interested in hearing about it. Do not use this forum to air your grievances. Take it to PM or email.

Feel free to post photos. We'd be delighted to discuss them with you.

[Dajak]

Hi Bill the tribal art dealer who sell the armour in Californie did make it complete with one off my spears .

I used to have a nice Nias collection before I start to collect Iban and Muruts weapons.

mostly of these Items went to a great friend of mine that was well known and respected and I miss him a lot because he passed away.
His name was Hank off Cyberantiqeus.

In the Netherlands you can find more about Nias than in Indonesian because we have a lot in the museum and the museum data base

Same about the kris in the Netherlands more about this sublect than anywhere else

The point that Cyclura wanna make is this an bellato that used as origin as an headhunting weapon that comes from the time they taking heads is hard to get .

So people start to copy it to make money ( we see thes on krissen mandau moro krissen weapons unfortunally they come a lot on the market if you like these items it is oke)

BUT THESE ARE MAKE FOR TOURIST AND MAKE MONEY PEOPLE WHO SEE THEM A LOT ON EBAY THINK 50 years THAT IS OLD THESE ITEMS BECOME
STANDARD NIAS PIECES BUT THEY AREN T:

It is also I see it a lot with mandau s that comes on the market if you like them it is okee but don think most of the pieces you can buy in Borneo ( Kuching very bad place to buy a mandau) that they are old and ever used for head hunting.

I know Chris has an outstanding collection of Nias stuf I send him recently
an 2 spears from an very old dutch collections that have been in the Netherlands for at least 100 years.
One off them used by an South Nias chief for headhunting.

I can reccommanded the book about Nias by Schröder but on the moment
I think the price is a little over $5,000.00 on Abebooks.
the data base in the museum of Leiden is very good Nusantara also the Kit museum in Amsterdam is very nice so take a plane to the Netherlands and I show you the Museum spots.

Regards Ben

[Bill M]

Dear Ben,

Thank you for the long post. You have some very good information. I will email with you privately and get some specific info. I find the Nias an interesting culture and want to know more.

Is the Museum database in English? It would be wonderful for you to post a link here. There are quite a few people who would be interested.

"$5,000 book"? Is that USD?

I understand about people copying authentic pieces to sell to the tourist market. Certainly this happens.

My personal focus is on Javanese keris. I have fair collection and was working with a world-class teacher. Business reasons caused me to interrupt my studies, I just did not have the quality time to invest. There is also a Javanese prohibition on displaying blades in public, including forums.

So I don’t feel comfortable posting pictures of the blades. I could post pictures of the complete piece, but then people would want to see the blades also. This is frustrating for me because I like sharing, teaching and learning.

I like people and I like the ethnographic community, so I began acquiring pieces outside the Javanese areas I was studying. Pieces that are ok to be photographed and posted..

To me, the study of Ethnographics must to take place within the understanding of the culture, the religion, the sociology, the political, the art and even architecture of the culture --- but most importantly the people of the culture.

So I use the Internet and these forums to develop relationships with people in other countries so that when I visit, I am not just going like any other tourist. I am going to meet with friends, dealers and collectors I have developed over the internet.

I also believe in abundance. There are plenty of weapons available.

I wanted a nice twistcore kris recently, but was outbid by my dear friends Dave and Lonna. While I wanted it, I recognized that it wanted to go to them, so I revel in their joy and only feel sad that my bid was such that they paid a lot more than if I had not bid.

But here are plenty more twistcore kris out here. But only one Dave and Lonna.

Now I have a few pieces. You have a few, Cy has a few --- but we are merely custodians, taking care of them. Someday, in we will personally be gone and someone else will be their custodians.

BUT the important thing (to me) the crucial thing is that we keep putting people first. The weapons are a common medium that bring us all together. But the weapons are NOT the most important thing here.

People are!

In business I am a very competitive person. My nature is one of competition. Once I decided to learn ballroom dancing. I took many private lessons with top quality teachers. I became quite good. Good enough to enter dance competitions and win.

I have always loved dancing. But I found a distasteful behavior rising in me. As I entered competitions I began to HAVE to win! I HAD to beat my friends in the dance shows. I did not like the way I was behaving.

One day, I quit the dance competitions. I realized that I was letting winning get in the way of my friendships, and you know, Ben, it wasn’t fun anymore.

I am here, on this Forum --- in this life --- to enjoy people. To learn and teach.

So let’s not lose sight of the fact that people are more important than weapons. One day when we each move on, we will not take the weapons with us, but I think that we will take our friends!

There are people who just rub us the wrong way. I don’t have a problem distancing myself from those who would try to invade my calm center. Unless attacked, I prefer to go my own way. Most of the time I walk away because I don’t care to be pulled into their negativity.

And sure, I can get irritated by people who say the way I collect is wrong. What I collect and how I collect is my business and my lifestyle.

Life is like a salad bar, you walk up and make your choices. Sometimes you ask your friend, “Is that good?” Sometimes you make different choices. But I think it is improper to tell your friend he should not eat the anchovies because you don’t like them! If he doesn’t like what you order, he is free to order something else.

We will have agreements and disagreements. I like an environment where we can discuss and learn. In another thread I have posted an Ethiopian sword. Some people think the hilt is Rhino horn. Others think it is something else.

I really don't know, but I am enjoying the conversation and learning. For example Rhino is preferred as a sword hilt because when it gets wet, it becomes more sticky and the hand can hold it better.

Another post tells me that this mystery sword I bought because I like the handle and shape is from Sumatra. And we talk about it for a while. And I make new, and interesting friends.

Real estate has been good for me. I can pretty much buy what I want, but I recognize that many of my friends here are not in that position. Sometimes I accidentally overbid a friend or Forumite. Often I email them and apologize and ask if they want the piece for my bid.

And sure, I ask for help from experts. I do this in business as well. I spend a lot of money with CPAs, income tax lawyers, appraisers and portfolio analysts.

Why not ask for help from people on this Forum who have spent a lot of time studying a particular area? I find a Vietnamese crossbow. I have never even seen one before. I will ask a Forumite his opinion. He sees these pieces and is familiar with them. I would be a fool NOT to ask his opinion.

If I find I am being solicited by a dealer I have never heard of before. I WILL ask around. Some dealers are solid knowledgeable people. Some are not. I don’t care to waste my time. Please understand that my last remark is NOT aimed at anyone.

So that is me. Now I want to go and play with my kris. BTW I do think that kris and keris have a very special place in the world. They seem like living beings. They love attention. I have a hard time seeing one be mistreated without saying something.

My God, my wife, my close friends, my dogs and my keris, in that order. It works for me!