?1900s Indian Army saber?

Rick · 12th August 2006, 06:23 PM

Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ?
Looks like a good no nonsense weapon Tim; fully functional beauty .

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2006, 06:54 PM

The few books I have on military swords only have a slight mention of Indian Army swords except the 1903 or is it 06 pattern adopted by all English speaking countries. I can find no mention of the piece before the false edge. The sword has certainly see some action. Border line ethnographic but tells a story.

Flavio · 12th August 2006, 06:58 PM

Hello Tim, I like it

Lew · 12th August 2006, 07:36 PM

Tim

A nice blend of east and west

The blade seems to be typical tulwar style in design. If you really hate it I would be glad to take it off your hands

Lew

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2006, 08:17 PM

Thanks Lew you are making me feel better for spending money when I really should be thinking about the bloody stupid car. I think I shall hang on to it for the moment. A car does not last long so it can wait a few more weeks, and I hate it anyway. I know there are some nice heavy talwars but this sword is heavier than most one sees.

katana · 13th August 2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ?

It obviously was forged during the manufacturing process.......but is it to re-inforce the spine at the point that the back becomes a false edge....I haven't seen this feature before.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2006, 12:11 AM

While the progression of British military regulation pattern swords was well documented and has very good resources identifying them ("Swords of the British Army" by Robson, the most recent and comprehensive), the swords of the British native cavalry units are only vaguely described.
It is true that Wilkinson-Latham is one of the famed sword making dynasty in England, and as others, such as John Wilkinson, who has also written on these weapons, have had considerable resources which describe the historical data involving that firms extensive production.

This sword certainly is in the style of the regulation M1853 cavalry sabre, although it is of course not one of the regulation issue examples. There were examples of these produced for native regiments in India, one group having been produced by a Rodwell & Co. I think around the late 19th c. but I do not have details handy at the moment. The typical colonial sabres made in around the 1880's for some of the cavalry units were made in the form known as the 'gothic hilt' and were patterned after the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three bar hilt.
It is also known that the stirrup hilt sabres of the M1796 light cavalry sabre, with the hatchet point, were produced also in the latter 19th c. by makers who consigned to supply forces in the Raj, one such firm was J.Bourne & Sons. These stirrup hilt sabres were still in armouries as late as the 1930's

This sabre is likely end of 19th c. to early yrs 20th and as noted the 'step' preceding the false edge is most interesting, forming a form of 'choil' on the sharpened back edge.

Most interesting sword!!
Best regards,
JIm

Tim Simmons · 15th August 2006, 09:24 PM

Jim I can see the feature "choil" working on a knife/ survival knife, being very handy, but I cannot see that function on a sword. Is it possible that the chiol on the sword is more of a sighting device to ensure the best delivery of sword cut. By the way google images "British India army cavalry" some interesting pictures, skinners horse ect.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2006, 10:03 PM

Hi Tim,
Without martial arts expertise it is difficult for me to offer qualified opinion on practical application of such features, but it would seem most likely it was simply to strengthen the sharpened back edge. It is interesting to see the application of the yelman on what would certainly be a latter 19th century sword blade, at least in the mounts of this example. I am still trying to recall where those other '1853' patterns were used, I think it was Baroda province?
I do know that a number of illustrations of British native cavalry did indicate these patterns, but again cannot place specifically.
I have always enjoyed this extremely colorful period of cavalry history, and one of my most treasured experiences was interviewing a British brigadier who had led one of the last cavalry charges near the Khyber in the 1930's.He was with a Bengal lancer regiment, and among his swords were one of the stirrup hilted sabres I mentioned (13th Bengal Lancers).

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 15th August 2006, 11:45 PM

On the Indian/Afghan swords I have handled with this feature it has always struck me that the sweat spot of the blade was just an inch or two below the visible spine projection, so I think your theory could be possible Tim.

Another possibility that occors to me is maybe you only want a sword to penetrate to that depth ? any more is a waste of both sword blade & your energy?

Perhaps its also like the cross bar on a boar spear? in a more minimal fashion? you dont want a determined but run through man coming at you up the blade beyond that point?

Just a few thoughts that popped up.

Spiral

Likhari · 18th November 2017, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ?
Looks like a good no nonsense weapon Tim; fully functional beauty .

Do you mean the part in this interesting example covered in gold and in the shape of a makara ?

ariel · 18th November 2017, 09:40 AM

Some time ago I asked a question whether tulwars with classical indo-persian handles continued to be manufactured in the 20th century as regulation swords for Indian military. The answer was inconclusive: Swords were made for the cavalry, but what kind?

From this thread it appears that there already were regulation swords with EUROPEAN style handles.

So my question still stands: were tulwars still used by the Indian military or were they summarily replaced?

Likhari · 18th November 2017, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Some time ago I asked a question whether tulwars with classical indo-persian handles continued to be manufactured in the 20th century as regulation swords for Indian military. The answer was inconclusive: Swords were made for the cavalry, but what kind?

From this thread it appears that there already were regulation swords with EUROPEAN style handles.

So my question still stands: were tulwars still used by the Indian military or were they summarily replaced?

Ariel the Indian Military in the 20th century was not a homogenous unit. It was made up of the British Indian Army and the armies of the Princely States. Some of the State Forces did carry the traditional tulwars as the attached picture of a Sate Cavalry Trooper shows. The British Indian Army did not carry traditional tulwars. After independence for a brief period in the 1990s one of the Indian Army Chiefs changed the ceremonial sabre to the tulwar form but they reverted back to the European influenced straight sword when he left office.

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2017, 06:55 PM

There was no doubt a great deal of diversity in the swords used in the British controlled armies of India, that is the Native forces. These were of course primarily supplied by the British government, in the early days of the Raj, the East India Company.
Certainly later in the century, there would have been few traditional or native made tulwars in the ranks, beyond of course, those used by officers who may have used heirloom weapons.

Actually, while 'colonial' forms of British pattern swords were produced by makers in England, there were instances of 'traditional' style (Indo-Persian hilt) tulwars also made for these forces. According to records from John Wilkinson-Latham using records from c 1903, a number of the Native Cavalry units selected tulwars of traditional form.
Realizing that the term 'tulwar' is used collectively for 'sword' in Indian parlance, it is noted that the other swords selected by other units are described by pattern type, (i.e, M1796; M1853 etc. ).

I have seen examples of brass cast traditional tulwar hilts made by MOLE and there have been others seen over the years. These seemed to be almost
'rack' type weapons, though I do not recall numbering.

I have also seen Indo-Persian hilts on M1796 blades bearing the etched cartouches of British officers blades; M1788 blades mounted in traditional shamshir style Indian hilts and koftari decoration added to blade; and examples of khanda hilts on British military blades later in the century.

It would be difficult to say how late tulwar forms might have been produced for Indian forces, but British sword making firms produced ethnographic form weapons for colonial regions well into the 20th century. While it would be difficult to specify the many cases, that is my opinion in general.

Likhari · 22nd November 2017, 04:59 PM

I would beg to differ with you on this one Jim.

To the best of my knowledge in the 20th Century not a single unit in the British Indian Army carried the Indian hilted tulwars. I would love to be persuaded otherwise. If you can provide any photograph or painting to prove your point I will gladly eat some crow.

The forces of the Native Princely States of course carried Indian hilted swords well into the 20th Century as I have already stated.

In the 19th Century on the other hand there was significant laxity allowed in the uniforms of the British Indian Army so much so that some soldiers in one unit would carry tulwars and others British Pattern swords as the attached picture shows:

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2017, 09:59 PM

Well its Thanksgiving day tomorrow, and I'm afraid I'm the one who will have crow instead of turkey!

You seem to be correct, and I am afraid that my recollection was swayed by those MOLE tulwars I once had, given that MOLE was also the maker of many of the three bar hilt forms I have seen.

In "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" by R.J. Wilkinson-Latham, 1973, pp.28-31, there are lists of the sword types preferred by cavalry and infantry regiments 1850-1918. I think that the instances of State troops vs. The British Indian Army also brought my misperception,
"...state troops raised and maintained at the expense of their rulers did not always follow the style used in the regular army and many variations exist in this category, some weapons engraved with the state badge while others had distinctive hilt designs made for them by British manufacturers".

Further,
"...officers swords also varied but were in the main confined to two patterns, the light cavalry of 1822 and the heavy cavalry pattern of 1856 and 1896.
Dress swords were either like the British style levee swords, or COPIES OF THE NATIVE TULWAR PATTERN".
p.30.

I think this may have added to my confusion.

Thank you so much for bringing this up, and for the clarification.
It really is good to be looking into these Indian units and weaponry here, and to get back to studies from quite a long time ago.
Really glad you're here on this, and look forward to more talks!

12th August 2006, 06:23 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ? Looks like a good no nonsense weapon Tim; fully functional beauty . Attached Images

22nd November 2017, 04:59 PM	#15
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	I would beg to differ with you on this one Jim. To the best of my knowledge in the 20th Century not a single unit in the British Indian Army carried the Indian hilted tulwars. I would love to be persuaded otherwise. If you can provide any photograph or painting to prove your point I will gladly eat some crow. The forces of the Native Princely States of course carried Indian hilted swords well into the 20th Century as I have already stated. In the 19th Century on the other hand there was significant laxity allowed in the uniforms of the British Indian Army so much so that some soldiers in one unit would carry tulwars and others British Pattern swords as the attached picture shows: Attached Images

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12th August 2006, 06:54 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	The few books I have on military swords only have a slight mention of Indian Army swords except the 1903 or is it 06 pattern adopted by all English speaking countries. I can find no mention of the piece before the false edge. The sword has certainly see some action. Border line ethnographic but tells a story.

12th August 2006, 06:58 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Tim, I like it

12th August 2006, 07:36 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim A nice blend of east and west The blade seems to be typical tulwar style in design. If you really hate it I would be glad to take it off your hands Lew

12th August 2006, 08:17 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Thanks Lew you are making me feel better for spending money when I really should be thinking about the bloody stupid car. I think I shall hang on to it for the moment. A car does not last long so it can wait a few more weeks, and I hate it anyway. I know there are some nice heavy talwars but this sword is heavier than most one sees.

15th August 2006, 12:11 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	While the progression of British military regulation pattern swords was well documented and has very good resources identifying them ("Swords of the British Army" by Robson, the most recent and comprehensive), the swords of the British native cavalry units are only vaguely described. It is true that Wilkinson-Latham is one of the famed sword making dynasty in England, and as others, such as John Wilkinson, who has also written on these weapons, have had considerable resources which describe the historical data involving that firms extensive production. This sword certainly is in the style of the regulation M1853 cavalry sabre, although it is of course not one of the regulation issue examples. There were examples of these produced for native regiments in India, one group having been produced by a Rodwell & Co. I think around the late 19th c. but I do not have details handy at the moment. The typical colonial sabres made in around the 1880's for some of the cavalry units were made in the form known as the 'gothic hilt' and were patterned after the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three bar hilt. It is also known that the stirrup hilt sabres of the M1796 light cavalry sabre, with the hatchet point, were produced also in the latter 19th c. by makers who consigned to supply forces in the Raj, one such firm was J.Bourne & Sons. These stirrup hilt sabres were still in armouries as late as the 1930's This sabre is likely end of 19th c. to early yrs 20th and as noted the 'step' preceding the false edge is most interesting, forming a form of 'choil' on the sharpened back edge. Most interesting sword!! Best regards, JIm

15th August 2006, 09:24 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Jim I can see the feature "choil" working on a knife/ survival knife, being very handy, but I cannot see that function on a sword. Is it possible that the chiol on the sword is more of a sighting device to ensure the best delivery of sword cut. By the way google images "British India army cavalry" some interesting pictures, skinners horse ect.

15th August 2006, 10:03 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Tim, Without martial arts expertise it is difficult for me to offer qualified opinion on practical application of such features, but it would seem most likely it was simply to strengthen the sharpened back edge. It is interesting to see the application of the yelman on what would certainly be a latter 19th century sword blade, at least in the mounts of this example. I am still trying to recall where those other '1853' patterns were used, I think it was Baroda province? I do know that a number of illustrations of British native cavalry did indicate these patterns, but again cannot place specifically. I have always enjoyed this extremely colorful period of cavalry history, and one of my most treasured experiences was interviewing a British brigadier who had led one of the last cavalry charges near the Khyber in the 1930's.He was with a Bengal lancer regiment, and among his swords were one of the stirrup hilted sabres I mentioned (13th Bengal Lancers). All the best, Jim

15th August 2006, 11:45 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	On the Indian/Afghan swords I have handled with this feature it has always struck me that the sweat spot of the blade was just an inch or two below the visible spine projection, so I think your theory could be possible Tim. Another possibility that occors to me is maybe you only want a sword to penetrate to that depth ? any more is a waste of both sword blade & your energy? Perhaps its also like the cross bar on a boar spear? in a more minimal fashion? you dont want a determined but run through man coming at you up the blade beyond that point? Just a few thoughts that popped up. Spiral

18th November 2017, 09:40 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some time ago I asked a question whether tulwars with classical indo-persian handles continued to be manufactured in the 20th century as regulation swords for Indian military. The answer was inconclusive: Swords were made for the cavalry, but what kind? From this thread it appears that there already were regulation swords with EUROPEAN style handles. So my question still stands: were tulwars still used by the Indian military or were they summarily replaced?

21st November 2017, 06:55 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	There was no doubt a great deal of diversity in the swords used in the British controlled armies of India, that is the Native forces. These were of course primarily supplied by the British government, in the early days of the Raj, the East India Company. Certainly later in the century, there would have been few traditional or native made tulwars in the ranks, beyond of course, those used by officers who may have used heirloom weapons. Actually, while 'colonial' forms of British pattern swords were produced by makers in England, there were instances of 'traditional' style (Indo-Persian hilt) tulwars also made for these forces. According to records from John Wilkinson-Latham using records from c 1903, a number of the Native Cavalry units selected tulwars of traditional form. Realizing that the term 'tulwar' is used collectively for 'sword' in Indian parlance, it is noted that the other swords selected by other units are described by pattern type, (i.e, M1796; M1853 etc. ). I have seen examples of brass cast traditional tulwar hilts made by MOLE and there have been others seen over the years. These seemed to be almost 'rack' type weapons, though I do not recall numbering. I have also seen Indo-Persian hilts on M1796 blades bearing the etched cartouches of British officers blades; M1788 blades mounted in traditional shamshir style Indian hilts and koftari decoration added to blade; and examples of khanda hilts on British military blades later in the century. It would be difficult to say how late tulwar forms might have been produced for Indian forces, but British sword making firms produced ethnographic form weapons for colonial regions well into the 20th century. While it would be difficult to specify the many cases, that is my opinion in general.

22nd November 2017, 09:59 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Well its Thanksgiving day tomorrow, and I'm afraid I'm the one who will have crow instead of turkey! You seem to be correct, and I am afraid that my recollection was swayed by those MOLE tulwars I once had, given that MOLE was also the maker of many of the three bar hilt forms I have seen. In "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" by R.J. Wilkinson-Latham, 1973, pp.28-31, there are lists of the sword types preferred by cavalry and infantry regiments 1850-1918. I think that the instances of State troops vs. The British Indian Army also brought my misperception, "...state troops raised and maintained at the expense of their rulers did not always follow the style used in the regular army and many variations exist in this category, some weapons engraved with the state badge while others had distinctive hilt designs made for them by British manufacturers". Further, "...officers swords also varied but were in the main confined to two patterns, the light cavalry of 1822 and the heavy cavalry pattern of 1856 and 1896. Dress swords were either like the British style levee swords, or COPIES OF THE NATIVE TULWAR PATTERN". p.30. I think this may have added to my confusion. Thank you so much for bringing this up, and for the clarification. It really is good to be looking into these Indian units and weaponry here, and to get back to studies from quite a long time ago. Really glad you're here on this, and look forward to more talks!