Help with knife & sword ID, please

[DaveF]

I was sent this photo of a knife and sword acquired by a friend at a brocante in France. He'd cleaned the sword, but not the knife. They were labelled African, which would be my guess as well.
Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

[DaveF]

I'm checking with my friend whether or not the sword is laminated, as the photo suggests. South East Asia?

[Tim Simmons]

I had one and I am pretty sure they are North African . Bring backs North African ww2 so a vast area.

[DaveF]

Thanks Tim. As you say, "North Africa" covers a big area.

This thread's had over a thousand views already, but only one comment. I suppose that could mean that the blades are vanishingly rare or that they're too mundane to comment on.

The sword blade is laminated, apparently.

[colin henshaw]

I've never seen hilts like these before (maybe inspired by European hilts ?) North Africa somewhere seems most likely looking at the sheaths...are they made of leather ?

Interesting...

[DaveF]

I've not seen hilts like these either, Colin, and neither has Google, it seems.

I've heard back from my friend and he confirms that the scabbards are leather, stretched/shrunk over some sort of cane. The hilts look like they've been well handled and both blades are, quite crudely, laminated. The weight in the hilt makes the sword feel balanced in the hand. My friend thought maybe West African, as a guess.

It's starting to look like they will remain something of an enigma.

[gp]

what are the sizes, measurements actually ?

[RobT]

Hi All,

GP asked the question I was wondering about. Most especially about the sword. When sheathed, would it be long enough to function as a sword cane? The hilt certainly seems to be suitably configured for that use and the sheath throat looks very much like the one on an African sword cane I have.

Sincerely,
RobT

[DaveF]

I'm told it's about 90cm long in total.
A sword cane is an interesting possibility, Rob. The tip of the scabbard is leather, rather than a metal ferrule. Are African sword canes leather tipped? Also, the scabbard construction is perhaps too light for a cane, seemingly fabricated from strips of cane/african grass under the thin leather. I wonder if it at least started as a cane? The same sheath throat suggest it's possibly from the same region/culture as your cane, Rob? Do you know where yours is from?

[RobT]

Hi Dave F,

My cane is about 34.875” (88.5825cm) OAL with a 23.5” (59.69cm) blade. So, yours and mine are about the same length. I have provided an overall picture of my cane plus a close up of the throat. The shaft is rather stoutly made of two halves of ebony bound by what appears to be silver solder wire. The colored inserts appear to be plastic. The ferrule is a length of threaded black pipe and the crook ferrule is a piece of unthreaded black pipe.
I don’t know if the same holds true for Africa, but in Europe, light construction and non-metal ferrules were often used for canes and sticks not intended for actual support or for use as a cudgel. Canes and sticks with sword blades in them were oftentimes very lightly constructed. I have seen canes and sticks with non-durable ferrules of horn, bone, bakelite, and brass. In addition, some canes were far too short to be used for support (eg some plantation canes and some forms of shillelagh). In short, the cane in Europe became an item of dress for well-to-do men and women and actual utility wasn’t always necessary. If canes and sticks in Africa carried the same symbolism of wealth and authority perhaps suitability for use as a cane wasn’t always a requirement there either.
The above being said, I would still check the tip of your cane carefully for any possible ghost of a missing ferrule (durable or non-durable).

Sincerely,
RobT

[gp]

could it perhaps be a kind of trench art ?

a hidden sword in a walking cane is also often seen in Europe and the UK in the 19th century....

and hence could it be either be made by a solder or POW ( in Africa?)....?

just a wild guess, but maybe some forum member with more knowledge on trench art would be able to comment....
as intriging the origin of this set of two are indeed !

[DaveF]

I passed on the comments on here to my friend and this was his response:

"I think a sword stick is less likely. No evidence of a ferrule, but I suspect it was like the end of the dagger sheath, ie all leather. Originally the bits of bamboo/grass were sticking out of the end! Also sheath has no inherent strength, being leather wrapped round some grassy stuff, unlike a sword stick. And dagger identical, so obviously made as a pair."

From his comments it sounds like the sheath really is a sheath rather than a "stick".

One thing we can say with some confidence, whoever made them, the design didn't catch on!

[RobT]

Dave F,

There are two additional points I didn’t mention in my first post. First, if your item is a just a sword and not a sword stick, why doesn’t it show any evidence of having had a means of suspension? I know that daisho were worn thrust through the obi but the sheaths had a knob to prevent the swords from sliding out. I don’t know of a similar form of sash carry in Africa. Secondly, if your blade wasn’t meant to be a sword stick, why is it so slender for its length and why is the OAL of the piece so coincidentally correct for a sword stick.
The absence of a ferrule is immaterial. As I pointed out in my first post, canes and sticks in Europe were oftentimes not meant for support and were simply carried as a status symbol. I should point out that this is the case with clubs in Africa. Rungu are too short to be used for support and even iwisa which are often long enough to be used as a stick, don’t have ferrules (and the four examples I have don’t show the type of wear at the tip that constant contact with the ground would cause).

Sincerely,
RobT

[DaveF]

RobT,

Yes, Thanks for your comments, your points are all well made. The lack of any obvious means of suspension on the scabbard is telling and may indeed point to a symbolic use. I think the companion dagger is also lacking in that respect so I'd presume that both blades were kept next to the person in the same way. Would it be fair to say that if the use was more status/symbolic then whether you call it a cane and dagger or a sword and dagger is a moot point?

[RobT]

Dave F,

Carrying a knife without a means of suspension is far easier than carrying a full length sword without same. Both your knife and your sword appear to have been made to be quite lethal, so I would hesitate to categorize either as symbolic. The sword blade appears to have a finely forged lenticular section and, frankly, is of far better quality than my example. I think that, if you examine the issue, you will find that no weapon achieves symbolic status without first being used in the culture as an actual weapon. Furthermore, weapons don’t become symbolic throughout a culture all at the same time. In some more regulated areas where the populations are subject to tighter authority, the weapon carry can become more symbolic than functional but, at the same time in less regulated areas, the same weapons are expected to function primarily as weapons and their symbolic nature is secondary. Given the quality of both your blades, I think it quite likely that they were both fully intended to be weapons.

Sincerely,
RobT

[DaveF]

Yes, "symbolic" was the wrong word. The fact that both weapons were well honed also suggests that they were made for use as weapons.