Central African for ID

[Jim McDougall]

In my earliest days of collecting, one of my key references, and my ideal, was Richard Burton and my now tattered copy of his "Book of the Sword" (1884). His comprehensive study of the ethnographic and historical arms of ancient times I think reflect many of the Victorian notions comparing the influences of the swords of ancient times to modern ethnographic forms.

The interesting shapes and styling of many ethnographic examples in many cases can be visually compared to these ancient forms as seen in instances of various iconography, but no direct lineage chronologically is proven in these cases, as compelling as they may be. It seems more potentially atavistic adaptions recognizing ancient traditions.

While a brilliant scholar and indeed swordsman, Burton did have his Anglo-centric posture on things and some of his notions did reflect what Christopher Spring ("African Arms & Armor") referred to as 'western pragmatism'. This went to the case of the African 'throwing knives' and in the same perspective the idea of the 'reaching around shields' pertaining to the Ethiopian shotels.

In fact, the 'throwing knives' in some cases were indeed thrown, however in the broader spectrum, with African arms as discussed, often it was a matter of elaborate design which was in a sense, 'for show'. These were in my opinion used in certain events and perhaps even confrontations as a kind of bearing weapon, and not intended for actual combat.

It is truly a great thing to have this kind of discussion and sharing of observations, which really helps in not only offering some most helpful insights for the owner of this sword, but for those of us hoping to learn more on these arms. I just wanted to thank Jeff for posting this and everyone who have shared so much information.

Changdao, very well put regarding the interpretation of the use of many ethnographic forms as applied in terms of western use techniques, and deeming them ineffective through misundertanding.

All best regards
Jim

[Sajen]

See also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3bcnxx18k

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In fact, the 'throwing knives' in some cases were indeed thrown, however in the broader spectrum, with African arms as discussed, often it was a matter of elaborate design which was in a sense, 'for show'. These were in my opinion used in certain events and perhaps even confrontations as a kind of bearing weapon, and not intended for actual combat.

All best regards
Jim

Hi Jim! Sorry, but you're deeply mistaken.

Read:

Lyon G. F., Narrative of travels in Northern Africa, in the years 1818, 19, and 20, London, 1821, 228:
«Mukni has several times desolated different parts of the country of the Tibboo of Borgoo, and Kawar, and these people now revenge themselves on whatever luckless whites may fall into their power. Their arms in the interior are three light spears and a lance, a dagger and sword, and missile weapons called Shangar, which do much execution».

Dr. Gustav Nachtigal, «Sahärä und Südän», Berlin, 1879, 453:
«The throwing irons, then—called Midschri by the Arabs of neighboring countries Shangermangor, are of various shapes, approximately three spans long (of which about half is the handle), have projections of different shapes and directions, averaging one span long, and are double-edged in the lower part of the body, while the projections usually have a back and a cutting edge. They are made from a single piece of iron, and the end of the handle is wrapped with strips of leather or twine for better handling. The people of Ennedi were praised to me as being particularly skilled in the manufacture of this favorite weapon of those regions.

People are accustomed to the use of weapons from their earliest childhood. Even tender boys are given a medium-length lance, serving simultaneously as a spear and javelin, made of sharply pointed wood, with which they practice and which they never let go. Instead of a throwing iron, at this age they are given a flat-cut piece of wood, curved in its surface and sharpened at one edge, whose shape resembles a saber. While this weapon is hardly capable of causing serious injury, the sharply pointed end of the small acacia wood lance is more likely to do so. In later boyhood, they are entrusted with a real throwing spear, albeit of a smaller scale, and later the throwing iron and the lance are added, until, upon entering adolescence, they come into possession of the full arsenal of weapons. As a result, the men are so accustomed to at least having a spear and throwing stick in their hands that in their home villages, where they are not allowed to go about armed, they revert to the customs of their boyhood: the wooden spear and the flat, crooked stick. The fact that custom forbids them from appearing with metal weapons within their settlements has particularly compelling reasons for Bardai and the other permanent villages. Everywhere, the inhabitants' propensity for quarrels and disputes justifies this custom; but in Bardai and other villages of eastern Tibesti, their quarrelsome nature is compounded by a passion for the Laqbi, which multiplies the opportunities for conflict and increases the inclination towards bloody settlement».

Also, I can't remember the source yet (I'll add it when I find it). Infantrymen carried three throwing irons in a case. When the enemy approached, they would hurl them at the legs of infantry and horses, causing serious damage.

Sincerely,
Yuri

[Tim Simmons]

I had one of these many years ago and do believe that a read from somewhere that these were used in a formalised type of combat akin to a sport? Perhaps rather like jousting.

[Jim McDougall]

Yuri, thank you so much !!! As always, your research and well substantiated documentation is impeccable!!!
My comment was notably vague so it is important to add this clarification.

Tim, it seems I had read something like that as well, and it seems that the sporting use of weaponry is important in learning and maintaining skills in the use of them in tribal societies.

Always learning here guys! Excellent!!!

[Pertinax]

Barth H., Travels and Discoveries in North and Central Africa . . . 1849-1855, 5 vols. (New York, 1857, 3 vol., 197

Musgu's weapons

They generally carry only one spear, but several “goliyo”s or hand-bills, the latter being evidently their best weapon, not only in close fight, but even at a distance, as they are very expert in throwing this sharp and double-pointed iron sideways, and frequently inflict severe wounds on the legs of horses as well as of men.

[kronckew]

Search YouTube for Mambele sickle sword.
There are a number of videos for an instructor showing sparring with these.


My humble one. Made of a soft iron, not steel, as they are.

[Changdao]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Barth H., Travels and Discoveries in North and Central Africa . . . 1849-1855, 5 vols. (New York, 1857, 3 vol., 197

Musgu's weapons

They generally carry only one spear, but several “goliyo”s or hand-bills, the latter being evidently their best weapon, not only in close fight, but even at a distance, as they are very expert in throwing this sharp and double-pointed iron sideways, and frequently inflict severe wounds on the legs of horses as well as of men.

Indeed, these throwing knives of the "northern family" were in common use in the area near Lake Chad. Attached is a photography of a rider with several on his shoulder.

As for the knives of the "southern family", they were also used for real. Their more complex shape and higher cost meant they were socially important and used only on important occassions such as pitched battles, but they were used in earnest nonetheless, as reported by contemporary writers and Evans Pritchard's studies from the interview of old warriors who had been alive when these were used in warfare. They are extremely aerodinamic and fly very well.

[Pertinax]

Throwing weapons of the Mandara tribes of the eastern mountains of Cameroon.
1. Mountain people's weapons
2. Throwing knives (musei, marba, lele, ngambay) with decorated sheaths.