Crucible steel in Malela keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, what you are looking for is a "quench" line, not a temper line, it indicates the point at which the quench might have stopped, it is a change in colour of the material, but it can disappear after a blade is polished. It does not need to be a straight line, it can be a graduated area.

I've put a couple of arrows onto one of your pics, these arrows DO NOT indicate where I believe a quench line is, they indicate points that can look similar to the area where a quench line might be, & they are in places where a quench line might be expected to be found.

Then again, it is entirely possible that the maker did not wish to heat treat the blade, many decorative, very expensive, modern custom knives do not get a heat treat also. And for the same reason:- if the blade has been made as a work of art & not for intended use, then why risk damage to the blade by bringing it up to critical & plunging it into a quench?

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Adam, what you are looking for is a "quench" line, not a temper line, it indicates the point at which the quench might have stopped, it is a change in colour of the material, but it can disappear after a blade is polished. It does not need to be a straight line, it can be a graduated area.

Then again, it is entirely possible that the maker did not wish to heat treat the blade, many decorative, very expensive, modern custom knives do not get a heat treat also.

Quench line is a better and more accurate way of expressing the idea.

I didn't know that about modern art knives. Makes sense but I feel that I lost some innocence.

Adam, Alan, and Tatyana thank you for showing us these blades. I really enjoyed all the fuller work.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Alan, that is what I heard too - there are Malay and Sumatra Keris made of Wootz steel, but none from Java or Bali.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes IP, true.

What we see & believe when we're on the outside looking in is very often a lot different to what we find the truth to be when we're on the inside, looking out.

It can be pretty disillusioning sometimes.

Going back into the late 1970's through to the 1980's the situation with forge welding & the associated craft of pattern welding was in the process of being reborn in USA & other places. A lot of custom knife makers, & others, wanted to jump onto the wagon and find out how it was done. Forge welded & pattern welded knives were the new thing. We were all going to become millionaires.

Bill Moran :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...an_(knifemaker)
led the way, but a lot of us followed.

In those early days there was at least one WannaBe in the USA who found a quite skillful way in which to flim-flam the dreaming masses who wanted a beautiful pattern welded knife.

What he did was to make small pieces of pattern welded material, & then affix those pieces of pattern weld to a mild steel core in a mosaic pattern with good quality adhesive.

It is possible that some of the individual little pieces of "pattern weld" were also constructed with the help of adhesive.

Correction
I have just been advised that at least one of the people who made "pattern welded" knives in USA with adhesive --- maybe even the one I was thinking of --- did in fact use good, high carbon, heat treated steel for the core on at least some occasions.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, that makes sense Tatyana.

But to me, it seems a bit silly to make a keris blade from wootz.

The big positive quality of wootz is supposedly its superior cutting quality, but this is balanced by its inferior ductility --- apart from which it is not easy to work with.

A keris is a weapon of thrust, & it needs to be able to withstand side forces.

If wootz was used for keris in Sumatera, & this does seem to be the case, maybe it was because of a shortage of other more suitable materials.

Sumatera seemed to have better trade ties with India, Jawa had better trade ties with China. Most ferric material coming into Jawa was from China.

But then there is the fact that China imported wootz from India & exported Chinese steel to India. Maybe that wootz did originate in Sri Lanka or South India, but it got to Sumatera by way of China.

One thing is dead certain:- that wootz material used in Sumatera was not made in Sumatera.

[jagabuwana]

Alan - got it, thank you for patiently answering my questions. But there is something I still don't understand because my metalworking knowledge is poor. Why could it not, or why should it not have a steel core if it is made of a homogenous material?

~~

Tatyana - these are the clearest photos of a full keris made of wootz that I have seen. Thank you for sharing this!

Both you and Alan raise good points that might support why wootz keris are rare:

1. No contrasting pamor. Given how much importance is given to pamor especially in in Jawa-Bali, it wouldn't make sense to use wootz.
2. Its mechanical properties are not well matched to what a keris needs.
3. It is not easy to work with.

So then why was wootz ever used at all? Alan has suggested that it might be due to a shortage of the usual materials available.

I'll speculate on another reason. Imported wootz originated from places that were known to have better forge technologies and better iron. Wootz then may have taken on the reputation of being the "better" quality steel, perhaps more expensive than local stuff, and so had a prestige associated with it. I have put better in inverted commas here on purpose seeing as one must always ask "better for what?". But I'm referring to perception of quality and prestige here. Admittedly I'm hingeing all my speculation on a particular translation of "malela" that was given by Dr Alex West in his thesis on the Bujangga Manik Sundanese manuscript which I've asked about in a separate thread - https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=279782.

[adamb]

Thanks to everyone for their opinions on this subject.

On the subject of this keris, any insight into its origin and age?

My feeling is Malay States, possibly Terengganu, but I've been chatting privately with another forum member who thinks possibly west Java or Palembang

[adamb]

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