Sword 12/13 century or not?

Lee · 23rd November 2025, 03:57 PM

I collected these sort of things for about three decades. When I started in the 1980s, I only encountered examples in the market occasionally and although I was truly a noob, wet behind bat ears, I did well because the items in the market were almost always authentic antiques and because lesser examples in excavated condition were simply not in great demand.

I have been inactive in this market now for over a decade, though with very little trouble on the web I can find at least a dozen examples of objects on offer appearing to be European medieval swords - all in better condition and with finer decoration than what I have collected.

I occasionally get inquiries from aspiring collectors as to whether an example they are considering purchasing is "older than I am." For analogy, consider a stool with three legs: 1) connoisseurship - overall form and decoration, nature and quality of workmanship and patina; 2) objective technical data - XRF for surface and shallow elemental composition, X-ray and metallography; and 3) provenance - and here if there are no verifiable details be cynical. With only a set of images you are maintaining a very precarious balance.

I am a fairly unhelpful and useless consultant as I have only two unqualified responses as I gather in all the information presented. I am either "enthusiastic" meaning I'd strongly consider finding the cash to buy the item or I am "afraid" and would decline. If I could generate a score number for my overall impression it would rarely be 100% confident or a 0% condemnation. But probably my calibration would place a score less than 80% under 'afraid' and decline. This calibration should occasionally cause me to reject an important and authentic example. Such a failure in that direction has yet to be proven and a 95% threshold would likely have saved me money without significant lost opportunities.

So now, donning my moderator's hat, may I remind members that when they present an item to the membership for opinions, that is exactly what they are going to get - opinions from varying degrees of expertise based on incomplete and remote data. I have had items condemned here for which I remain confident. Search my history and you shall find that I have practiced what I preach - thank members for their opinions, as almost always these have been offered in good faith, even on those occasions when they may not be correct.

serdar · 23rd November 2025, 04:39 PM

To get back to object of this thread, no one said this sword is authentic, that is a reason i didn't buy it because I'm not sure, but i will get all analyses done and if it shows it is authentic then i will buy it.

Opinion is one thing, but claiming something is a 100% fake without any prooves is completely another thing.

It isnt realy a hard to analyse sword and list data of metal, production method and age, and compare, sure it costs but it costs far less then to buy a fake, i learned my lesson with two fake swords i bought and presented on this forum.

By the story of current owner of this sword, it was excavated from mud from river of near town, i saw several swords excavated from that same river that are in a museum, and they are in excellent condition, so it wont be such problem to analyse and compare with those swords.

There are few red flags to me, ne damages, even surface, those two can be explained, but to me bigest is handle or better to say hilt pattina, it should be diferent and wood and lether should be partialy preserved in that perfect conditions, or shoud leave a trace, but it is all uniform pattina, who knows, analyse will tell.

One needs to be patient and listen to himselfe, his feeling, and offcourse check and analyse things, and be aware of "all knowing experts" that sell you their offcourse "original" swords....

serdar · 23rd November 2025, 04:42 PM

Regarding those two swords posted by jim, i saw several like those that look worn out, old, perfect, genuine, in one european auction house, deemed fakes in origin from Hungary, they refuse to put them in an auction.

Sometime perfect condition antique are real, another time worn expected condition antiqe isnt, who would know.

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23rd November 2025, 03:57 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 998	I collected these sort of things for about three decades. When I started in the 1980s, I only encountered examples in the market occasionally and although I was truly a noob, wet behind bat ears, I did well because the items in the market were almost always authentic antiques and because lesser examples in excavated condition were simply not in great demand. I have been inactive in this market now for over a decade, though with very little trouble on the web I can find at least a dozen examples of objects on offer appearing to be European medieval swords - all in better condition and with finer decoration than what I have collected. I occasionally get inquiries from aspiring collectors as to whether an example they are considering purchasing is "older than I am." For analogy, consider a stool with three legs: 1) connoisseurship - overall form and decoration, nature and quality of workmanship and patina; 2) objective technical data - XRF for surface and shallow elemental composition, X-ray and metallography; and 3) provenance - and here if there are no verifiable details be cynical. With only a set of images you are maintaining a very precarious balance. I am a fairly unhelpful and useless consultant as I have only two unqualified responses as I gather in all the information presented. I am either "enthusiastic" meaning I'd strongly consider finding the cash to buy the item or I am "afraid" and would decline. If I could generate a score number for my overall impression it would rarely be 100% confident or a 0% condemnation. But probably my calibration would place a score less than 80% under 'afraid' and decline. This calibration should occasionally cause me to reject an important and authentic example. Such a failure in that direction has yet to be proven and a 95% threshold would likely have saved me money without significant lost opportunities. So now, donning my moderator's hat, may I remind members that when they present an item to the membership for opinions, that is exactly what they are going to get - opinions from varying degrees of expertise based on incomplete and remote data. I have had items condemned here for which I remain confident. Search my history and you shall find that I have practiced what I preach - thank members for their opinions, as almost always these have been offered in good faith, even on those occasions when they may not be correct.

23rd November 2025, 04:39 PM	#2
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 249	To get back to object of this thread, no one said this sword is authentic, that is a reason i didn't buy it because I'm not sure, but i will get all analyses done and if it shows it is authentic then i will buy it. Opinion is one thing, but claiming something is a 100% fake without any prooves is completely another thing. It isnt realy a hard to analyse sword and list data of metal, production method and age, and compare, sure it costs but it costs far less then to buy a fake, i learned my lesson with two fake swords i bought and presented on this forum. By the story of current owner of this sword, it was excavated from mud from river of near town, i saw several swords excavated from that same river that are in a museum, and they are in excellent condition, so it wont be such problem to analyse and compare with those swords. There are few red flags to me, ne damages, even surface, those two can be explained, but to me bigest is handle or better to say hilt pattina, it should be diferent and wood and lether should be partialy preserved in that perfect conditions, or shoud leave a trace, but it is all uniform pattina, who knows, analyse will tell. One needs to be patient and listen to himselfe, his feeling, and offcourse check and analyse things, and be aware of "all knowing experts" that sell you their offcourse "original" swords....

23rd November 2025, 04:42 PM	#3
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 249	Regarding those two swords posted by jim, i saw several like those that look worn out, old, perfect, genuine, in one european auction house, deemed fakes in origin from Hungary, they refuse to put them in an auction. Sometime perfect condition antique are real, another time worn expected condition antiqe isnt, who would know.