Weird "sword"

[Jim McDougall]

Wow Ian! this thing strains the boundaries of pragmatic thought! While it appears to have been a sword blade however lacking any evidence of fullering or typical blade features it would seem a blacksmith made example. The age based on the pitting etc corresponds to 18th c......in accord with the 'date'(?)

It is always curious why bold dates are placed on sword blades, or purported to have been placed on them when made. It seems most likely in most cases a date is typically a commemorative toward some significant event in the context of the blades intended user. For example, 1707 was the date of the disastrous Acts of Union between England and Scotland, but that notion is tenuous at best, as why would that date be heralded? unless the weapon was to be used against it.

The odd letter 'J' (or so it seems) would not be used for 'Jacobite' obviously as the letter J as such was not in use in alphabet for at least 100 years. I hated even bringing that idea in as it is so irrelevant, but for the sake of discussion I figured why not
So then is this some symbolic device or balemark?

Moving to the most notable features of the blade, this seems clearly some repurposed blade into a tool or implement.
This strains the old phrase from Biblical context, ' beating swords into plowshares'..........this aint no plowshare!!!

The strange barb system does bring to mind a harpoon (as you have noted), or some sort of hunting implement.

So all I can add is questions, but look forward to the amazing knowledge base out there........and those lurking.....bring it in!!!!
All I could add is this silly ratiocination, but added it anyway.

[Ian]

Thanks Jim. Appreciate your thoughts.

[Edster]

Ian,

Your 'sword" may be a tool rather than a weapon, as Jim suggests. The interiors of the point elements are aligned. Also the roots of the points have been relieved like to accommodate or catch or guide a rope or other flexible material.

As far as actual "purpose", who knows? An archeologist with no clue would opt for some sort of "ritual significance".

Best,
Ed

[Ian]

Thanks Ed, might well be a tool, but I don't know what it would be used for. Unusual to see a small brass (?) disk guard on a tool, but could be.

[RobT]

Ian,

Very interesting piece. I am leaning toward tool. The shape of two prongs would allow them to be used as nail pullers. If the blade were to be thrust forward so that the nail head would catch in the blade/prong notch of the prong nearest the tip, that would serve to raise the nail slightly. The small guard would keep the hand from sliding up the hilt on the thrust. Once the nail was raised (and bent forward slightly by the thrust) the prong/blade notch on the other side could be used to pry the nail out by using the tip as a fulcrum. Take a look at slate roof nail pullers from the 1700s.
Are you sure it is a letter “J”?. When I saw it, the first that came to my mind was a bale hook. What I find interesting about all of the lettering is that it appears to be raised. Is this just the photograph?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

Hi Rob. I'm sure of very little about this item. The markings at forte are cut into the steel. The edges below the two spikes are said to have been sharpened. Any thoughts why?

[thomas hauschild]

Modern „clean“ steel is from 1850-1870 or younger. Any older steel should show some laminations / forge-welding visible in the rust. Just an opinion.

Best Thomas

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Edster

Ian,

Your 'sword" may be a tool rather than a weapon, as Jim suggests. The interiors of the point elements are aligned. Also the roots of the points have been relieved like to accommodate or catch or guide a rope or other flexible material.

As far as actual "purpose", who knows? An archeologist with no clue would opt for some sort of "ritual significance".

Best,
Ed

I don't think it's a tool .
As to the letter that's not a letter J in any Latin script ....

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting stuff from Google AI

1:
Represents new beginnings, leadership, and the spirit Papa Legba, who controls the crossroads and allows communication between worlds.
7:
Can be associated with the spirit Ogou, a warrior spirit representing strength, power, and protection. It can also be linked to wisdom and spiritual insight.
0:
Often signifies potential, the void, or the beginning of a cycle. In some contexts, it can be linked to the spirit of the Great Mystery or the divine.
Therefore, while 1707 isn't a standard Voodoo number, it could be interpreted as a call for new beginnings (1) and strength (7), possibly with the assistance of a powerful spirit like Papa Legba (1) or Ogou (7), and with the potential for spiritual growth (0) through their guidance. The presence of two sevens could also emphasize the importance of spiritual strength and protection.
It's important to note that interpretations can vary within different branches and traditions of Voodoo, and a specific understanding would likely come from consulting with a Vodouisant (practitioner) familiar with the specific tradition and lineage.

[Ian]

Tim, thank you for this interpretation of 1707. Outside-the-box thinking indeed!

Great stuff.

This is why I think this forum is special--smart people, good ideas, and a willingness to express unconventional interpretations.

[Ian]

Tim, I did a similar search using Google's AI engine and here is what it said:

Question: What do the numbers 1, 7, 0 and date 1707 mean in Voodoo culture?

Answer:

While Voodoo has a rich history rooted in West African traditions and syncretized with Catholicism, particularly in Haiti and Louisiana, the year 1707 does not appear to hold a specific, widely recognized significance within Voodoo history itself.
My search results show that 1707 is mentioned in the context of:

• Witchcraft laws in Great Britain: The union of Scotland with England in 1707 led to more tightly controlled prosecutions of witches. This is a historical event related to witchcraft in a European context, not directly to the development or practices of Voodoo.
• A study code (ZA1707): A search result from GESIS (a German social science infrastructure service) mentions "Study: ZA1707 - The Search for Meaning - the New Goals in Life." This is likely an internal code for a research study and not a significant date for Voodoo.
The origins of Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo can be traced back to the 16th-19th centuries, with enslaved Africans bringing their traditions to the Americas. Key developments include:
• 16th-19th centuries: The blending of West and Central African religions with Catholicism in colonial Saint-Domingue (Haiti) and Louisiana.
• 1791 slave revolt in Haiti: This event led to a bolstered presence of Voodoo followers in places like New Orleans.
Therefore, while 1707 falls within the broader period of Voodoo's development, it doesn't stand out as a pivotal year in the religion's timeline. The significance lies more in the overall processes of syncretism, resistance, and the continuity of African spiritual practices in the diaspora.
While specific numerical systems like Western numerology aren't central to Vodou in the same way they might be in other esoteric traditions, numbers do hold significant meaning within the context of Vodou, often in relation to specific Lwa (spirits) and their associated rituals and attributes. It's more about their association with specific entities or concepts than a universal, abstract numerical code.

Here's a breakdown of how the numbers 1, 7, and 0 might be understood:

1 (One):

• Unity and the Divine: In many spiritual systems, including those that influenced Vodou, "one" often represents the ultimate source, the creator, or the unity of all things. In Vodou, this could broadly relate to Bondye, the distant, transcendent creator deity.
• Beginning/Source: As the first number, it signifies the origin or foundation.
• Self-reliance, Individual Power: Some numerological interpretations, which may find echoes in Vodou's emphasis on personal connection with spirits, link 1 to individual purpose, ambition, and self.

7 (Seven):

• Spiritual Completeness and Perfection: This is a very significant number in many spiritual traditions, and it carries weight in Vodou as well. It's often associated with spiritual perfection, wisdom, and mystical connection.
• Lwa Associations:

o Ogun: The Lwa of iron, war, and justice, Ogun is strongly associated with the number 7, reflecting his powerful influence and complete nature as both warrior and craftsman.
o Elegua (Eshu): The Lwa of crossroads, communication, and trickery, Elegua is associated with numbers like 3, 7, 21, 101, and 1001. The 7 here can represent the "seven directions" Elegua can move, highlighting his ability to navigate different realms.
o Yemaya (Yemoja): The Lwa of the ocean, motherhood, and fertility, Yemaya is associated with 7, 14, and 21. The 7 here relates to the "seven seas" and her nurturing virtues.
o Oshun: The Lwa of love, beauty, and abundance, Oshun is associated with 5, 7, 9, 12, and 21. The 7 can represent the "seven colors of the rainbow" and her virtues.

• Planetary and Lunar Cycles: In broader occult and numerological contexts (which sometimes intersect with Vodou, especially in a syncretic way), 7 is linked to the planets known to the ancients and the lunar phases.

0 (Zero):

• Potential and Nothingness/Allness: Zero, representing an absence, can also symbolize the void from which all things emerge, or the ultimate potential for creation. It signifies the beginning of a journey (like "The Fool" in Tarot, which can be linked to 0).
• The Void/Cosmic Egg: In some cosmologies, 0 can represent the unmanifested, the ultimate source before creation takes form.
• Moon (in some contexts): While not universally applied, some belief systems associate 0 with the moon due to its round shape.
Important Considerations:
• Lwa-Specific Associations: The most prominent numerical meanings in Vodou often come from their direct association with specific Lwa. Rituals and offerings for certain Lwa will involve specific numbers of items or repetitions that correspond to that Lwa's attributes and preferences.
• Syncretism: Vodou is a syncretic religion, blending West African traditions with Catholicism and other influences. This means that numerical symbolism might also draw from these other sources, though always filtered through the Vodou lens.
• Regional Variations: Like any living tradition, Vodou has variations depending on the region (e.g., Haitian Vodou vs. Louisiana Voodoo) and lineage. Specific numerical meanings might vary subtly between different houses or practitioners.
• Veves: While not numbers themselves, the intricate veves (sacred drawings made on the ground) are highly symbolic and represent specific Lwa. The patterns within these veves often contain geometric and numerical principles, even if not explicitly numerical in the way we usually think.
In summary, while a rigid "numerology chart" for Vodou is unlikely to be found, the numbers 1, 7, and 0 (and others, like 3 and 9) hold significant, though often contextual, meaning through their connections to the Lwa and the broader spiritual principles of the tradition.