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Old 18th March 2025, 07:33 PM   #1
Ian
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Jim,

I have only a passing understanding of Moro armour in the Philippines. While I see some commonalities with the boiled leather form you show, it does not resemble the construction of Moro armour that I have seen and you have described here.

Regards, Ian.
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Old 18th March 2025, 08:13 PM   #2
Battara
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The Moros did make leather armour. I'll look through my records to see if I have a picture.
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Old 18th March 2025, 08:27 PM   #3
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Here is one picture I have of Mabagani's leather suit of Moro armour.
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Old 19th March 2025, 06:40 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara View Post
Here is one picture I have of Mabagani's leather suit of Moro armour.
This is wonderful!! Can we find detail on this armor? I presume it is 1800s. Is there a way to reach the owner of this? Was there a tradition of using cuir boulli (boiled hide) in the Philippines, or was it leather coated with lacquer?

It would seen that leather use in the tropical climate would be less than durable.
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Old 19th March 2025, 08:34 PM   #5
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Jose, thanks for that picture. I don't recall seeing it before.

Jim, the links between the Americas and the Philippines were very strong during the Spanish Colonial period. Many of the Spanish Governors of the Philippines came from Mexico, so a direct connection between the Spanish Colonial administrations involving the Pueblo Indians and the Philippines should be fairly easy to establish. I have not looked into this, but my sources were Filipino academics when I was working in the Philippines during the late 1990s-early 2000s.

Regards, Ian
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Old 19th March 2025, 09:04 PM   #6
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I'm quite sure that this is not soft leather but carabao hide, probably dried hard not supple.

Mabagani was a member here long ago, but his behavior and others during the Macao Museum of Art exhibit got him and the others banned. So no, he ditched me as well personally since I was the only one of the original people involved to be asked back to the exhibit work.
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Old 19th March 2025, 11:52 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
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Thank you so much Jose,
What is important here is this example shown is completely unlike any other Moro armor I can find anywhere. All other examples and designs are front opening reflecting the Islamic influenced forms of mail armor on which they were based long before the Spaniards arrived.

Since this is likely of the same likely 19th century vintage as it seems most Moro armor in the references I have found, this design which is entirely enclosed without mail does resemble the example I posted. Since my example is from c. 1720s, it would appear that Spanish designs from the Southwest must have diffused into the Philippines, perhaps via the 'Manila galleons'?

The frontier example is of cuir boulli, that is two ply boiled bull hide, dried, shaped and hardened. I am curious whether this process was ever used in the Philippine archipelagos. It would seem these types of leather or rawhide would not be very durable in wet, tropical climates.

I am wondering if any other examples of Moro armor are like this one, in one unit without mail, skirted etc. and in hide as noted.
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Old 20th March 2025, 04:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Jose, thanks for that picture. I don't recall seeing it before.

Jim, the links between the Americas and the Philippines were very strong during the Spanish Colonial period. Many of the Spanish Governors of the Philippines came from Mexico, so a direct connection between the Spanish Colonial administrations involving the Pueblo Indians and the Philippines should be fairly easy to establish. I have not looked into this, but my sources were Filipino academics when I was working in the Philippines during the late 1990s-early 2000s.

Regards, Ian
Thank you Ian, good points about the connections between Spanish colonial and Philippine administrations, and there was certain networking from Santa Fe where Pueblos were situated. While I have learned a lot about Spanish colonial, I unfortunately know very little on the Philippines and Moros.
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Old 18th March 2025, 08:34 PM   #9
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Thank you so much guys! This is very important.
I have browsed through everything I can find online, but absolutely nothing I can find comes close to this unusual example. It has a long history in the American Southwest, but was only rediscovered in recent years in an obscure estate sale, and has since been both on display in several venues as well as enduring notable controversies.

As there is not a single example of comparable armor anywhere of this material and from the Spanish frontiers of the 17th into 18th c. it is not possible to evaluate on this basis. The Philippine suggestion I take as rather a 'drawing at straws' solution which has yet to offer any supported evidence.

The most important comparison, virtually the only one, is depictions of Spanish soldiers and Pueblo allies in an obscure event in 1720 in Nebraska (the Villasur expedition) where they were massacred by Pawnee and Oto warriors under French forces. These type cuirasses with skirted rawhide in place of tassets are seen in the Indian produced hide painting. There are numerous details in these iconic works which were unknown in America until the 1980s when they were brought back from their holding in Lucerne, Switzerland since 1750s.
This is why this form of cuirass in cuir boulli has remained unknown, as the first notable reference to Spanish colonial arms and armor I am aware of is Curtis (1927). Obviously the well known cuera jackets (sewn hides) are described in various sources since, but this rare form has never been noted.There are few references on these topics, so this is most important.
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Old 18th March 2025, 09:15 PM   #10
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Amazing, do we have more detail on this? period etc.
What type of leather?
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Old 19th March 2025, 05:31 AM   #11
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Possibly a comparison of the chest plate and pueblo designs might be in order here.
Or has that already been done?
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Old 19th March 2025, 03:16 PM   #12
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Possibly a comparison of the chest plate and pueblo designs might be in order here.
Or has that already been done?
Thank you Rick. Actually thanks to Jose showing that particular armor, which does of course appear to be leather, I cannot make out construction features nor material used(what type of leather) .

The frontier example is made using the cuir bouilli process ,which is boiling raw hide, drying, and shaping.
This is contrary to leather which is tanned and supple but not in solid hard product as cuir boulli.

I have references which indicate the Pueblos allied to Spaniards were instructed by the then governor of Santa Fe to make boiled hide armor for their planned attack to retake Santa Fe in 1681. The Pueblo uprisings in 1680 had caused the Spanish to flee the city as many tribes had formed a coalition against them.

What is important here is design features, and it is noted that the triangular fixture on the Moro armor is compellingly similar to the frontier example.
Also the triangular elements along the waist demarcation are similar.
I am thinking this brings a strong possibiity that the Pueblo design may have diffused to the Philippines via the Spanish presence there in later years.

I am under the impression that the Moro examples of armor known come from later periods than the frontier example, from mid to late 19th c.
The influence of the espasda ancha for example occurs in numbers of Philippine bolos of these later periods, while the espada ancha was of course from mid 18th into mid 19th c.
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Old 22nd March 2025, 01:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Jim,

I have only a passing understanding of Moro armour in the Philippines. While I see some commonalities with the boiled leather form you show, it does not resemble the construction of Moro armour that I have seen and you have described here.

Regards, Ian.

Thank you Ian. This armor came out of an auction sometime in 1957 in California and was grouped with other Spanish colonial items including a morion. It was acquired by a renowned Arizona antiquarian named Gil Procter who operated a small museum previously held by Pete Kitchen, another legendary figure in Arizona history from the 1870s.
The cuirass was in this time on display from 1958 until Procters death in the 1960s. From here it with many other items it went into storage and obscurity until ultimately ending up in an estate sale over 20 years ago.
It was then acquired by an Arizona dealer and appraiser who is well known in American Indian and Spanish colonial arts and cultural items.

At no point in the entire time of this example has it ever been described as anything other than a very old Spanish leather cuirass, which were known to be in use in the Spanish southwest from end of 17th century into early 18th.

The difference in this type of armor from the regularly known type of leather armor is that this is of cuir boulli, a hardened rawhide of ox. The other more ubiquitous type is of buckskin, often deerhide, which is tanned and treated leather, in layers sewn together into a jacket (cuera) which was long and open in front.

In these times metal cuirasses were hard to come by in these remote frontier regions, and mail was also hard to maintain. The problem with these forms of armor was also they were not durable in the heat and climate, heavy and with mail, it did not protect well against arrows. In most cases, especially if mail had become compromised with rust or corrosion arrows could easily penetrate and worse, carry contaminated metal shards into the wounds.

In the cuir boulli cuirass shown here, there is question on the decorative elements and motif, indicating it resembles OKIR, which is a complex Philippine motif typically vegetal in character.

Here what I would point out is that in this period in New Spain in late 17th century, European art styles in baroque manner were well established with Indian artists, such as the Pueblo, who produced artwork which often combined their own styles with the baroque type decoration. This is the case with this armor which is believed to be represented in a painting of the massacre of the Spanish and Pueblo expedition from Santa Fe into Nebraska in 1720. This work is on buffalo hides and atypical of most Pueblo paintings typically produced in Santa Fe, which were more commonly ecclesiastic and Catholic oriented of course. Baroque art was a theme developed by Catholic Faith in early 17th century which held into mid 18th, and even longer in Spanish contexts.

As far as I have discovered, the construction of this rawhide cuirass is not consistent with any of the scale and mail armor assemblies of the Moro in the Philippines which are typically 19th c. and of carabou (water buffalo) and brass links. The presumably okir style decoration on them seems characteristically placed on the scales in brass cutout elements.

In this armor the decoration, in stylized baroque floral figures, is cut into the rawhide apparently after the hardening process.
In the construction of this armor, it is open at the side, where it was lashed together. Note the projections at the neck both front and back which were to prevent knife cuts, these not present of course on Moro armors.

Illustrated are okir style motifs left and baroque right

The cuirass, and the Pueblo painting of c. 1726 showing a Pueblo warrior wearing what appears to be this type armor, and what seems to be a representation of what Holz ("The Segesser Hide Paintings", 1970, Gottfried Holz). terms 'insignia'. This reference occurs pertaining to many of the over 46 other warriors in these paintings (Segesser II) with similar type armor.

The Mabagani armor shown in post #5 in my opinion does show tenuous similarity to elements of the discussed cuirass, but these may likely be to exposure to these types of earlier Spanish style armor sometime in the centuries the Spaniards were in the Philippines. While the Moros did not copy Spanish style armors typically, there seems to be an equal degree of copying of Spanish helmets, with a vestigial degree of elements such as the 'comb' on the morions ....but overall the Moro versions resemble burgonets.
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Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd March 2025 at 01:24 PM.
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