Thick knife frome Bali/Lombok

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot give an answer to this question, at least, not one that I can defend.

Firstly, with things Balinese I'm very much a learner, this is to say that I know more now than I did 20 years ago, vastly more than I did 50 years ago, & less than I would expect to know this time next year.

Secondly, until very recently Bali was a number of different little kingdoms separated by deep valleys, high hills, & jungle. These little kingdoms were in a state of more or less constant warfare with constant changes in alliances, this means that when we think of old Bali we really should think of it as a collection of separate locations where people spoke mutually intelligible dialects of the same language, and the way in which each of those dialects was used varied across time & place & with each person.

I think the same thing is true of most languages, if we consider the English language there is a multitude of dialects & accents that can make our own language pretty incomprehensible to other native speakers of English.

I'm thinking right now of a particular gentleman who lived in California.

Way, way back when I used to send out hardcopy catalogues, he would take his copy from his letter box & immediately ring me and ask me to stay on the line until he got to the house, then his wife would deal with me, he was not able to understand me, she could, but with a little bit of difficulty.That was an accent problem.

But again with English. I habitually carry a pocket knife. Many of my friends carry one too. Some of my friends call their pocket knife a folder, some call it a jack knife, a very few might give that pocket knife its technically correct name, like "barlow knife", or "stock knife", or "pen knife" or whatever. I don't know why, maybe it was usage in their own families, or in the location where they grew up.

In respect of Balinese usage, I feel that usage there is similar to patterns of usage in English. From my own experience I find that just about everybody calls any sort of knife a tiuk, if pressed they might be able to give an alternative name, but the first word is tiuk, if they are using BI, then the first word mostly becomes pisau, but sometimes not, because --- as with Jawa --- ordinary people in Bali mix Balinese with Indonesian in everyday usage, & call that mixture "Bahasa Indonesia".

So --- golok? Yeah, why not? And equally, perupak? Why not?

Since we are using English, I personally think that our English word knife might be just as good. If the people in the society that generated this implement are free to give it varying names, then when we are referring to the same implement, we should be free to use our own name for it. The most important thing is that we understand one another.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But again with English. I habitually carry a pocket knife. Many of my friends carry one too. Some of my friends call their pocket knife a folder, some call it a jack knife, a very few might give that pocket knife its technically correct name, like "barlow knife", or "stock knife", or "pen knife" or whatever. I don't know why, maybe it was usage in their own families, or in the location where they grew up.

This phenomenon we have everywhere, the sickle knife attached I know under the name "hippe", my grandmother used such a knife in her garden. But this knife is known under several names in Germany, in other regions you would call the same implement "heppe", "häbe", "hape" "knipp", "säsle" "sesel", "schneier" or "gertel".

[Ian]

Oh Alan, your tale of a housekeeper reminds me of a very awkward experience when I stayed with a friend in Gujarat. He was the younger son of the late Maharajar of Dranghadra, a former Rajphut principality. We would be served by his cook for all meals and tea. This poor woman was of a reasonable caste, not dahlit (untouchable), but she treated me like a king. She insisted on washing my feet if I had been outside and would kneel with her face touching the ground when spoken to. I was very uncomfortable (to say the least). I asked my friend (the Prince) to ask her not to do that, but he said it was what she was taught to do and she would feel hurt if I stopped her.

Such customs (outdated by a hundred plus years IMHO) were still present in the early 21st C, and probably still are. I chose to swallow my Western bias and acceot her for what she wanted to be. We actually became friends and she taught me some of her recipes. Outside the kitchen, we returned to our socially appropriate postures and customs. Only in her kitchen were we allowed to be two human beings talking equally.

[A. G. Maisey]

Maybe I got the behaviour I was comfortable with because there were no observers, just the housekeeper & myself. If anybody had been watching, things might have been different.

In a way, it can be fun being equated to God on Earth, but it soon wears pretty thin.

Being called to breakfast (in Javanese) that translates as :- "my Lord, your morning meal is now ready" is just a bit too heavy i think.

Guess I never was born to be part of the ruling class.

[SidJ]

A Jawa wedhung was auctioned as part of the fabled Missilier collection recently. Lot 315 for those interested. This is the write-up. I am not sure if wedhung were used for funerary purposes not least because Jawa is Islamic and the practice referred to may be more Hindu Balinese. Anyway, any thoughts welcome -

Javanese ritual knife used by priests during funeral ceremonies, to symbolically sever ties with the world of the living. This example is particularly luxurious, with a handle in fossilized mastodon tooth and gilded metal, and a wooden scabbard decorated with gold thread instead of the usual rattan. It features a horn belt hook. This piece was probably intended for royal funeral rites.

[A. G. Maisey]

I tried to find the auction listing & I could not, however, the reported text that seems to have accompanied the listing does look to be somewhat confused.

[SidJ]

My thoughts exactly Alan. See the link and go to lot 315.
https://www.gazette-drouot.com/en/au...ier-collection

[David]

Originally Posted by SidJ

Javanese ritual knife used by priests during funeral ceremonies, to symbolically sever ties with the world of the living. This example is particularly luxurious, with a handle in fossilized mastodon tooth and gilded metal, and a wooden scabbard decorated with gold thread instead of the usual rattan. It features a horn belt hook. This piece was probably intended for royal funeral rites.

It sounds like they were confused by the common misconception that Balinese pengentas are a form of wedhung because this is the description most often applied to them.

[SidJ]

Well could be a rookie error which if so is embarrassing given the circumstances. But the story that was spun also happens to be a lot more alluring and exciting compared to tool symbolising servility to the King or symbolic grass cutter to enable the King to walk freely!