Thick knife frome Bali/Lombok

[Sajen]

Other wedung, all taken from this site from other members, I'll hope they don't mind. You can see that they differ but follow a given pattern in general.

[Athanase]

Thank you all for your answers.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Thank you all for your answers.

Hello Séverin,

Please don't let us die unsuspecting, what is the white stuff in the engravings?

Best regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Please don't let us die unsuspecting, what is the white stuff in the engravings?

Looks like silver to me.

[Ian]

That was my thought too, Jose. It looks as though there is quite a lot missing from the rest of the engraved area.

[RobT]

Sajen,

I am well aware of the form of the Javanese wedong and have an example. When I said that the knife I presented in this post was “some form of Indonesian wedong”, I meant that I believed that it was some sort of ceremonial knife from Indonesia that had a roughly equivalent function to a wedong (eg the Balinese pengentas tiuk). Antiques by the Sea is currently offering a pengentas tiuk for sale and they are selling it as a “balinese wedung”. Wikipedia also shows a pengentas tiuk example which they call a “Balinese style Wedung”. There is also a rather full discussion on vikingsword of these knives begun by Gustav on 12/20/2012 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=149921) in which Atlantia says “shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don’t”.
I don’t know whether my knife is from Bali or from somewhere else in Indonesia. I assume that it had a ceremonial function like a wedong but for all I know, it could just as well have been some sort of utilitarian knife.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

I am well aware of the form of the Javanese wedong and have an example. When I said that the knife I presented in this post was “some form of Indonesian wedong”, I meant that I believed that it was some sort of ceremonial knife from Indonesia that had a roughly equivalent function to a wedong (eg the Balinese pengentas tiuk). Antiques by the Sea is currently offering a pengentas tiuk for sale and they are selling it as a “balinese wedung”. Wikipedia also shows a pengentas tiuk example which they call a “Balinese style Wedung”. There is also a rather full discussion on vikingsword of these knives begun by Gustav on 12/20/2012 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=149921) in which Atlantia says “shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don’t”.
I don’t know whether my knife is from Bali or from somewhere else in Indonesia. I assume that it had a ceremonial function like a wedong but for all I know, it could just as well have been some sort of utilitarian knife.

Hello Rob,

Thank you for clarification! For me is a wedung a special knife from Java. It could be that wedung and tiuk pegentas have a similar source and have a similar blade shape but they are different knives with different purpose as well.

Best regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by RobT

I am well aware of the form of the Javanese wedong and have an example. When I said that the knife I presented in this post was “some form of Indonesian wedong”, I meant that I believed that it was some sort of ceremonial knife from Indonesia that had a roughly equivalent function to a wedong (eg the Balinese pengentas tiuk). Antiques by the Sea is currently offering a pengentas tiuk for sale and they are selling it as a “balinese wedung”. Wikipedia also shows a pengentas tiuk example which they call a “Balinese style Wedung”. There is also a rather full discussion on vikingsword of these knives begun by Gustav on 12/20/2012 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=149921) in which Atlantia says “shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don’t”.
I don’t know whether my knife is from Bali or from somewhere else in Indonesia. I assume that it had a ceremonial function like a wedong but for all I know, it could just as well have been some sort of utilitarian knife.

Hi Rob. I completely agree with Detlef here. We just need to stop calling Balinese pengentas tiuk a "Balinese wedhung". It's not a matter of whether "some do and some don't". It is simply indorrect, regardless of what Antiques by the Sea or a wikipedia page calls them. The bottom line is that there just is incorrect information floating about out there and as annoying as it might become regarding these particular knives i am afraid that i will step up and say the same thing every time someone calls a Balinese pengentas tiuk a "Balinese wedhung". LOL!
Yes, both Balinese pengentas tiuk and Javanese wedhung serve ceremonial purposes, but they are not at all related. The wedhung is solely for wear in the court of Javanese keratons. It symbolizes the wearers obligation and promise to "cut a path" for their Sultan. Though mostly symbolic, the wedhung might indeed be put to practical uses at the bidding of Sultan for small tasks around the keraton. The keraton is really the only place that the wedhung is worn.
Balinese pengentas tiuk, as i think you already point out, serve a ritual funerary function. During a cremation, a priest uses the tiuk pengentas to cut the deceased's cloth cord from their body. This symbolizes cutting the person off from earthly life.
That said, to me your knife most resembles a Balinese temple golok. These knives are used by priests (Brahmin) for the preparation of temple offerrings. Compare yours with one from my collection. Mine is a fairly large and heavy blade, weighing in at 900g (2 lbs). It is also razor sharp.

[Sajen]

Hello David,

Very nice hilt on your knife!

[Athanase]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Séverin,

Please don't let us die unsuspecting, what is the white stuff in the engravings?

Best regards,
Detlef

Hello,

In the engraving there is copper wire embedded but a lot of it is missing.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Hello,

In the engraving there is copper wire embedded but a lot of it is missing.

Thank you Séverin!

[A. G. Maisey]

I would have liked to comment in this thread a while back, but I've been a bit busy & have not had time.

With the naming of all things in Malay societies it is probably never a good idea to fix upon just one name for something, & this applies to just about everything, including sharp pointy things.

There are multiple reasons for this, but the most usual ones are local usage, language differences tied to location, use to which the object is put, & language differences tied to hierarchical position of the speaker/writer or the listener/reader.

With that in mind I will comment upon the big Bali knife & the word "wedung".

The big Bali knife is perhaps best described as a "perupak", but I think most Balinese people would simply call it a "tiuk", ie, a "knife", or maybe a "tiuk gedhe", a "big knife", perhaps even a "golok" ("golok" does exist in Balinese).

The word "wedung" (wedhun- a dot over the 'n' indicates the 'n' pronounced as 'ng') occurs in Old Javanese where Zoetmulder gives the meaning of : "a type of wide axe (with a wooden cover)".

In Modern Javanese the word "wedhung" is ngoko, ie, lower level Javanese, in Krama Inggil the word "pasikon" is used, & the meaning is a "cleaver-like knife worn with court dress" or "a sharp pointed knife with a somewhat curved blade worn by aristocrats", the second definition is the more academically correct.

In Bahasa Indonesia the word "wedung" means "cleaver".

The above are all dictionary definitions, but on the street, in real life the knife worn by some nobles in the Surakarta & Jogjakarta kratons is named as either pasikon or wedhung, depending upon the required level of language used.

As far as I can determine, the word "wedung" in whatever spelling does not occur in Sundanese, Balinese or Malay.

The wedung has varying forms, and historically appears to have been worn by nobles in courts other than the Central Javanese courts. My understanding of the usage of this word in Jawa is that a wedung really only becomes a wedhung (ng) or pasikon(KI) when it is fitted with a wooden scabbard and worn by, or suited to be worn by, an aristocrat.

[Ian]

Hello Alan,

Thanks for that erudite explanation and for reminding us of the intricacies of the Indonesian languages. Your explanations of the subtle use of words among Indonesian culture helps make sense of an otherwise opaque topic. Too often we descend into the "name game" in ignorance of these distinctions.

Regards, Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The big Bali knife is perhaps best described as a "perupak", but I think most Balinese people would simply call it a "tiuk", ie, a "knife", or maybe a "tiuk gedhe", a "big knife", perhaps even a "golok" ("golok" does exist in Balinese).

Hi Alan. I've been calling the knife i posted a "Balinese Golok" since that was how you described it when i acquired it from you. My question is, how is size an issue when applying these names? As you may recall, my example is rather massive, even though i don't believe my photos really show that very well without a reference point for scale. When i look back at Athanase's photos i believe the impression they left on me was that his knife was much larger than it actually is. But now that i am paying attention to the tape measure (with i assume is in cm) it appears Athanase's knife is only about 19cm. At first i thought it looked much larger. Mine in almost 30cm in length and 8cm in width. So i might have been more likely to call his knife "tiuk" given the size difference. But would that be valid reasoning when naming the knife?