Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

[Rick]

I'm with you, Jim.
I'm about 3 miles as the crow flies from the wreck site; it lies offshore about where the Marconi Station was located. During my misspent youth my friends and I most likely unknowingly surfed over the wreck site.
I remember when you could legally drive the beach from Eastham to Provincetown. During one of those rides we came across a large orange fender that had washed off from the wreck site.
Of course, we brought it home with us and it lived the rest of its life out back of my shed. Whydah was painted on the surface of the ball in large letters.
I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the Whydah or the salvage efforts to visit the museum if they're ever on Cape Cod.

A good book about henry Morgan and Port royal.

Empire of Blue Water: Captain Morgan's Great Pirate Army, the Epic Battle for the Americas, and the Catastrophe that Ended the Outlaws' Bloody Reign

You pirate aficionados should enjoy the book listed above.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland!

The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies.
I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association.

I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time who knows?

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library!

David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

[Jim McDougall]

Just thinking in terms if ballast, in the case of this curiously marked lead ingot, and studying the various forms of lead ingots used as ballast in vessels of these times, there were indeed various heavy materials used as ballast.

In many cases it seems that often the ballast had to of course be dumped or removed in order to load cargo, if that be the case. With pirate or privateer vessels perhaps that would not be considered, as they were not particularly involved in trade, though obviously commodities were typically their prize for sale.

In the case of this ingot, we would consider perhaps a vessel dumping ballast for whatever reason.....but if that be the case....where is the rest?
So in addition to the suspicious markings on this example, even more telling is that it is a single bar.

This was hardly indicative of treasure trove, nor of Captain Kidds, nor his Adventure Galley ....not even a ship wreck period.

Often shipwrecks are located because of the pronounced metal target in sonar with the iron cannon which are typically part of the wreckage. Often vessels long lost are located by the finding of cannon.

However in some cases, location of cannon might suggest a wreck site, but often heavy objects and materials have been used as ballast. Old cannon, armor etc. in many cases have served as such. I wonder if these might have been tossed over to lighten load for any reason.

In the case of five cannon found off the coast of Calif. at Goleta(near Santa Barbara) these were revealed on beach when storms cleared sands. There was not however any sign of a shipwreck. It was later found that a ship had foundered in this location in 1830, but was not wrecked and later it was removed and sold. The bill of sale indicated there were 5 cannon, however obviously these had been thrown off to reduce weight ? in moving the vessel out of its grounded situation.

Meanwhile, during the excited investigation of the guns, all manner of hyperbole evolved, up to claiming these were guns from Sir Francis Drakes ship in the 16th century PROVING he had indeed been there!
Later it was found these were 18th century, but indeed from a vessel of around 1830 by testing of hemp residue on several of them.

Just another example of these premature and fantastic announcements on archaeological finds.

[David R]

Re lead silver ingots, a Roman example was found in the UK all marked up as silver, but analysis proved it to be mainly lead. Roman era fraud. Became the central plot device in The Silver Pigs a 1989 historical mystery crime novel by English author Lindsey Davis.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks David!
Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect.
That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.

[Jim McDougall]

Thought I would bump this thread as Rick has piqued my interest AGAIN! and I really would like to find more answers.
Obviously this is not directly on arms subject matter, but of course the very image of pirates brings to mind the weapons they used.

Hoping in the near future to move toward a more comprehensive look at the actual weapons used by pirates, beyond the more cliche' forms such as the cutlasses and pistols. With these vessels operating in the Indian Ocean and to their Madagascar center, the vessels preyed upon out of India must have had an array of arms which might have found use among pirates. Certainly, as part of the loot, these exotic weapons would surely have been deemed useful.

On a more esoteric note, one thing I would like to bring to attention here, is on the huge 'ingot' of this discussion on the Clifford find, along with what may be spurious markings as often used on the lead ballast bars.....the presence of the device known as the 'Tau' cross. This may be perceived as the 'triple tau' which as part of Masonic regalia and symbolism may represent the 'T' over'H' (=templum hierosylmoe, temple of Jerusalem) which is said to be part of Royal Arch (York Rite) symbolism. In other references the symbol can be associated with 'the key to the treasure', in any number of metaphoric explanations.

This curious symbol placed on an ingot in this manner seems most curious and does not seem used on other bars or ingots whether lead or precious metal.

If the bar was, according to UNESCO, 95% lead and 5% something else (silver?) and with this highly suggestive symbol, could that lead to the controversy ? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BAR?

The imaqes are of the 'ingot' in question......next an actual silver ingot note markings' dynamics.

[CutlassCollector]

These silver ingots appeared at an auction last year.
Not so many markings but recovered from a wreck dateable to around 1739.

[Jim McDougall]

This is excellent CC!!!! Thank you!
This is more what silver ingots should look like, incl. size weight shape etc.

The 'ingot' shown by Clifford in 2000 is remarkably similar, as I have noted, to the boat shape of the 'great pig' style lead ballast bars from England in the late 17th c. While obviously that lends credence to the UNESCO report that this was 95% lead, it still is curious where the bar came from...where did it go?

Beyond the retort from the dive project declaring the UNESCO report 'disgraceful'?? why was there no supported rebuttal after the 2015 news flurry of the negative report ?

On the face of it, why would Kidd have left his 'treasure' aboard the leaking and virtually useless "Adventure Galley" after removing guns and everything else before burning it? Treasures found on vessels happen when they are 'lost' at sea, NOT when scuttled in a calm harbor. How would this situation have been even remotely acceptable?

It would have been more believable if the bar would have been presented for what it was.....but then...wouldnt there be more than one?

The find was alleged found in piles of 'ballast STONES' which make sense as a number of vessels had been scuttled in the careening of others in these locations.

Just lots of questions!
Thank you for coming in CC,

All best regards
Jim