ID on this dagger

[thinreadline]

Although I know that the dagger on the left is a Sudanese arm dagger , I have no idea about the dagger on the right or the curious markings .

[Battara]

On the piece on the right, the hilt looks Moro. But the blade is something else.

[Rafngard]

Hello all,

I actually have a similar blade (see pics attached)

A friend and I have a theory about it.

We suspect that some how a (possibly worn) Luzon blade, from something like a Luzon bowie knife, was remounted in a Moro context.

For mine at least, it "feels" like a gunong in the hand.
I suspect this is intention.

Enjoy,
Leif

[thinreadline]

thanks everyone for your help , much appreciated.

[Tim Simmons]

The blade looks like one of those North African knives from Morocco and about I believe called Bou Saadi or Boo Sado

[Kubur]

Hi,
Let's agree to disagree.
Bou Saadi's blades are not like that (plus Bou Saadi are Algerians)
For me, it's more an Afghan or Indian karud type blade.
The Roman numbers at the forte are intriguing.
I like Leif's idea gunong moro hilt with foreign blade.
Clearly the blade and the hilt are a marriage.

[Tim Simmons]

Two marriages is bigamy.

[Sajen]

I stumbled upon this old thread, I strongly guess that these daggers are Cylonese.

These knives/daggers are Celoyonese mahout's daggers. See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=lankan

[RobT]

Hi All,

I have a good number of Philippine Bowies but nary a one with a fuller so I don’t think that thinreadline’s blade is a repurposed Philippine Bowie. The ricasso is also not something I have ever seen on a Philippine Bowie. In addition, the hilt ferrule looks like something from Nepal or Afghanistan. I can’t recall ever having seen something like it on a Philippine knife or sword. The X (for ten) and the IV (for four) could be Roman numerals but, AFAIK, there is no plus sign (or cross) Roman numeral. It’s a pretty interesting piece. The blade would serve well on a boning knife.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Compare!

[carlos]

I have one similar with sheath....

[RobT]

Sajen,
When comparing the OP hilt, ferrule, and ricasso to the examples you have submitted, I see similarity but not sameness. In addition, the OP blade with its slightly upswept tip differs markedly from the clip points on the other three blades. Perhaps you could elaborate as to why you believe the OP knife and the other three are from the same culture? Where do the top two examples you show come from? The blades look Philippine. Do they have integral bolsters? I ask this because, on further viewing, it would appear that what I initially thought was a ferrule on the OP blade is actually an integral blade bolster. Hopefully, thinreadline will clarify.

Carlos,
Do you know where your knife comes from and what it is called? The blade profile and fuller match that of the OP (minus the ornate ricasso). Also, as with Rafngard’s example, there is clearly no integral bolster. Hopefully, thinreadline and Sajen will weigh in as to whether their examples have integral bolsters.

Sincerely,
RobT

[carlos]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3759
The seller told me dagger was from Borneo...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

Sajen,
When comparing the OP hilt, ferrule, and ricasso to the examples you have submitted, I see similarity but not sameness. In addition, the OP blade with its slightly upswept tip differs markedly from the clip points on the other three blades. Perhaps you could elaborate as to why you believe the OP knife and the other three are from the same culture? Where do the top two examples you show come from? The blades look Philippine. Do they have integral bolsters? I ask this because, on further viewing, it would appear that what I initially thought was a ferrule on the OP blade is actually an integral blade bolster. Hopefully, thinreadline will clarify.

Dear Rob,

I've stated that these "in my humble opinion" are so called mahout's daggers and I guess the one from Carlos as well. Different age, different part of Celyon maybe, who knows. Of course the examples are not exactly the same but I can see resemblance in them. Keris can look quite different, sewars as well like other weapons also, we don't have stamps here. I don't own such a knife but a friend of mine also owns a few. The two examples i've shown are not mine, I've given in up the thread where they were shown but here again: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=lankan
I will contact my friend if I can show them at this place for comparison.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

My friend searching for the pics.

Mandarin Manson offer such a knife in the moment, so I can't show it here.

But here are two other examples, they are called "kirichchiya", one is from the Colombo National State museum and the other one was sold by Wallis & Wallies.

[Sajen]

Here are the examples from my friend, who won them by a lot with other knives.

[G. Mansfield]

With a high level of confidence, I would agree that this is a Sinhalese mahout knife. I have/had two examples for comparison. An early variation and a much later one, both from Mandarin Mansion. Peter does a very good job of the breakdown of these so I will include his link as well for reference.

https://www.the-mansfield-collection...a-mahout-knife
https://www.the-mansfield-collection...a-mahout-knife
https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...-kirichchiya-0

Geoffrey

[Sajen]

Another one.

[RobT]

Hi All,

Frankly, I know nothing about mahout arms and equipment so my contention wasn’t whether or not these knives are mahout’s daggers but rather that they don’t all appear to be from the same culture.
Although, I noted that the first two knives in Sajen’s “Compare!” reply had blades that looked like Philippine Bowies, the hilts aren’t like anything I have seen in the Philippines. That’s why I asked about the integral blade bolsters. AFAIK, that type of bolster doesn’t appear in the Philippines. Rafngard’s theory of Luzon blades being re-hilted by Moros notwithstanding, I had my doubts about a Philippine origin for any of the examples.
In addition to possible differing cultural origins, G Mansfield’s links make it clear that age plays a part in the stylistic changes, with the older blades typically being more ornate.
With its stylized elephant head pommel and characteristic swept point blade, Carlos’ example certainly fits the bill for a 20th century mahout knife but I question the Borneo origin given by the seller because, as far as I can tell, domestic elephants were not kept recently in Borneo.
There appear to be two main categories: Knives with hilt ferrules alone and knives with integral blade bolsters (with or without hilt ferrules). The blades are either clipped or swept point and suitable for stabbing.

Sincerely,
RobT