Two uninvited keris for comments

[HughChen]

I have these two uninvited Keris. I have them but not out of my intention. I didn't purchase them, but they were sent to me by 'mistake'.
One of them has a horn hilt, I don't know what kind of horn. In the begaining, I thought it was wood.

The other has a very good fragrance and it's long-lasting.

[HughChen]

The horn hilt

[milandro]

nice krises

A Javanese and a Bugis kris , my guess is that the horn hilt is the Bugis? In that case it is most probably buffalo horn. I have a Bugis with a buffalo horn hilt.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by milandro

nice krises

A Javanese and a Bugis kris , my guess is that the horn hilt is the Bugis? In that case it is most probably buffalo horn. I have a Bugis with a buffalo horn hilt.

Thank you Milandro. Yes, the Bugis one has a horn hilt. I thought it was wood because it has some white coarse part in the top. A friend visited me and told me it's horn.

There is another horn figural hilt, can you help me to ID if it's buffalo or rhinoceros？This one looks better than the Bugis one

[HughChen]

I have no idea why the pictures I post are all flipped and repeated

[milandro]

I don't think the second hilt (very nice carving indeed!) is Rhino, to me looks like this may be some form of albino water buffalo (which is my favourite material I have a few in very different shades of colour )

From reading about rhino hilt, often that looks like " wood" to many observers. It tends to be mat and not shiny.

I will quote you some threads where you can see examples of people asking questions such as yours

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21327
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28853


This hilt you show...I think there is a strong possibility that this too *as another one that you have shown before) is not a Kris hilt but a Betel nut chisel

[David]

Originally Posted by HughChen

I have these two uninvited Keris. I have them but not out of my intention. I didn't purchase them, but they were sent to me by 'mistake'.

hmmm...i wish i had such problems as you. LOL!
The Javanese keris is a nice example of a Mahesa keris. I think the dhapur might be closest to Kebo Teki, but others might have other ideas.
I agree that the other one is a Bugis keris. Not sure of the exact origins though.
So, do you at least know where these "mistake" keris came from and do you have to return them?

[A. G. Maisey]

For the kebo style keris I'd be inclined to give it as Kebo Dengen Luk Sembilan.

But there is a problem in that Kebo Dengen should be Luk Lima & it should not have an ada-ada.

In any case, the keris has good age.

Both these keris are nice, middle of the road, collectable items.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But there is a problem in that Kebo Dengen should be Luk Lima & it should not have an ada-ada.

I find that whenever i find a more than basic Kebo keris it becomes rather difficult toi match it exactly to any of the pakem diagrams i have seen of the forms. There is always something that is not quite like what the pakem diagram shows.
And when i google Kebo Dengen i am finding lots of keris that don't even seem to be in the Kebo family (i.e. no elongated gandik). So go figure, eh?

[A. G. Maisey]

Exactly so David.

Even the highly respected Surakarta Pakem book is at variance with popular opinion in many respects.

The whole thing is this:- with keris there is no universal standard that can be applied across the board. My own background is firmly fixed in Surakarta ideas & practices, but this does not mean that those values are universal, it only means that the values & influences of the senior royal house of Jawa set a certain standard in places under its influence. In other places different values can & do apply.

This widespread variation is something that perhaps makes it more important to understand --- or try to understand --- the societal & cultural values attached to the keris, rather than to try to understand the physical values.

Within the Jawa-Bali nexus, there is widespread similarity in societal & cultural values that relate to the keris, whereas there is wide variance in the physical values.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

hmmm...i wish i had such problems as you. LOL!
The Javanese keris is a nice example of a Mahesa keris. I think the dhapur might be closest to Kebo Teki, but others might have other ideas.
I agree that the other one is a Bugis keris. Not sure of the exact origins though.
So, do you at least know where these "mistake" keris came from and do you have to return them?

I know where they came from, because I brought something else in the same place. They just sent me the kerises I didn't purchase instead of the kerises I brought. The cost of return and change will be too high, so I can only accept whatever I got.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For the kebo style keris I'd be inclined to give it as Kebo Dengen Luk Sembilan.

But there is a problem in that Kebo Dengen should be Luk Lima & it should not have an ada-ada.

In any case, the keris has good age.

Both these keris are nice, middle of the road, collectable items.

Thank you Alan, can you tell us what's the meaning of the following words?
Kebo
Dengen
Sembilan

[A. G. Maisey]

kebo is low level Javanese --- ngoko --- for water buffalo, high level --- krama (kromo) --- is maesa/maisa/mahesa, and the high level is sometimes used for this form also; Bahasa Indonesia/ Malay for "kebo" is "kerbau".

dengen is a tricky one, because it is Old Javanese, the form of Javanese in general use before the later Mataram period, & it means friend/servant/slave/acquaintance, dengen is not a misspelling or variant spelling of "dengan" which is BI/Malay for "with".

sembilan is BI/Malay for the number 9.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

kebo is low level Javanese --- ngoko --- for water buffalo, high level --- krama (kromo) --- is maesa/maisa/mahesa, and the high level is sometimes used for this form also; Bahasa Indonesia/ Malay for "kebo" is "kerbau".

dengen is a tricky one, because it is Old Javanese, the form of Javanese in general use before the later Mataram period, & it means friend/servant/slave/acquaintance, dengen is not a misspelling or variant spelling of "dengan" which is BI/Malay for "with".

sembilan is BI/Malay for the number 9.

So many names for water buffalo in Jawa. So the English name of this kind of Keris is: friend of buffalo?

[A. G. Maisey]

There is no English name, but I think perhaps 'buffalo friend' might be more suitable:- no kerbau = no rice

It is not really many names for the buff, but rather many languages, Old Javanese is no longer used except in a limited degree for some literary purposes, BI is a form of Malay, & Modern Javanese has a number of levels, in palace usage I have been told there are around 11 levels of Javanese.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by milandro

I don't think the second hilt (very nice carving indeed!) is Rhino, to me looks like this may be some form of albino water buffalo (which is my favourite material I have a few in very different shades of colour )

From reading about rhino hilt, often that looks like " wood" to many observers. It tends to be mat and not shiny.

I will quote you some threads where you can see examples of people asking questions such as yours

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21327
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28853


This hilt you show...I think there is a strong possibility that this too *as another one that you have shown before) is not a Kris hilt but a Betel nut chisel

Thank you Milandro, It seems that there is no easy way to distinguish rhino horn with buffalo horn.

It is big enough to be a Keris hilt, the only thing require is a Balinese selut to change the mendahk. it's a Rakshaha figure, pretty common as Balinese Keris figural hilt.

[A. G. Maisey]

Hugh, Milandro is correct, it is not a keris hilt, it could be a knife handle, or it could be a pelecok handle, the only way I would know for certain which one would be to hold it.

[David]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Thank you Milandro, It seems that there is no easy way to distinguish rhino horn with buffalo horn.

Sometimes it is difficult to photograph, but i believe it is pretty easy to distinguish rhino from buffalo horn in most cases. Here is a thread that might help you.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6162