Canary Islands Dagger or Spanish Philippines Naval Dirk?

[Legendary_Jarl]

Hello,

I remember seeing somewhere that people from the Canary Islands were prohibited from owning/making weapons such as swords and daggers. Therefore I don't believe these daggers you have came from the Canary Islands.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Legendary_Jarl

Hello,

I remember seeing somewhere that people from the Canary Islands were prohibited from owning/making weapons such as swords and daggers. Therefore I don't believe these daggers you have came from the Canary Islands.

Prohibited? there are NO knives from Canary Islands?


In going through discussions involving the Canary Islands 'naife', the collective term for edged weapons from this archipelago which is part of Spain, though autonomous.....it seems there were variations of these weapons....the form pictured is the most well known.

These have certain resemblances to Chilean corvo in the hilt, but the blade has a unique curved inset at the end of the edge to the hilt stem...which is often referred to as the "Spanish notch' or Meditteranean notch. This feature became well known on many knife forms in the trade traffic from Spain into the western regions and the Canary Islands were of course an established point of contact.

It would, as I have noted, be interesting to know where the notion of prohibiting edged weapons on any of these islands is derived, especially as there seems to be a notable division of geopolitical control over them. In using the valuable 'SEARCH' feature here, I was able to pull up discussions on these pages back to 2008, all discussing the distinctive CANARY ISLANDS naife form with interesting discourse from the local authorities on these types of weapons.

[Legendary_Jarl]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Prohibited? there are NO knives from Canary Islands?


In going through discussions involving the Canary Islands 'naife', the collective term for edged weapons from this archipelago which is part of Spain, though autonomous.....it seems there were variations of these weapons....the form pictured is the most well known.
.

You see the problem here is that you are calling these 'weapons' when they were always primarily tools, even if on occasion they were used as weapons.

I know in the Americas under the Spanish weapons were prohibited for the natives as well with the exception of the Tlaxcala. Can't uprise effectively without proper weapons :P

If you speak Spanish this video has a lot of information: https://youtu.be/uLHnlMzPMKk?si=FZrjbYC_1pD5AR1K



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[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Legendary_Jarl

Hello,

I remember seeing somewhere that people from the Canary Islands were prohibited from owning/making weapons such as swords and daggers. Therefore I don't believe these daggers you have came from the Canary Islands.

You can still buy newly made Canary Island knives, just use google!

[Jim McDougall]

Legendary, thank you so much for the further rationale here!
So if I understand correctly these bladed 'tools' which myself and the collectors/dealers etc and authors of numbers of references have, for most of the decades I have studied the history and development of arms........are NOT knives?

I think I can see a pattern here, and if I may offer some analogies.......and I am sure this topic could bring volumes.

In the 18th century, after the major uprisings in the Jacobite rebellions in 1715 and 1745, the British occupying Scotland PROSCRIBED all weapons , primarily of course the beloved Highland basket hilts. The EXCEPTION was the large dagger known as the dirk. It was held that as a utility item, these large daggers were acceptably permitted, while of course, many thousands of basket hilts were hidden away.

I just published a paper on the Spanish colonial short hangers known popularly in modern references as the 'espada ancha'. These were with the hilts resembling hunting swords, however with heavy blacksmith made blades....which were used primarily in utility functions, including brushing trails etc.
The thing is that in truth, these hangers, always deemed 'swords/thus a weapon' were always classified as weapons.....(I have studied these for over 40 years).........yet in their period of use.......they were known only as
MACHETES!
What is a machete? a TOOL.
The term espada ancha was a modern mistranslation used by writers and collectors because the term machete presented the wrong connotation.


I could of course go on, if we were to look into the many cases of the proscription of edged weapons in British India.......the Khyber areas; the Coorgs in Malabar etc etc.

Uprisings? it seems there were some in most of the cases where edged 'WEAPONS' were proscribed/

In history, the masses in the assembled armies were typically peasantry carrying all manner of TOOLS and IMPLEMENTS such as billhooks, scythes etc.......only well resourced fighters could afford swords and 'weapons'.

While I very much appreciate the ratiocination .......I just wanted to add some of the perspective I have understood over the years in the study of edged weapons and their history. What I am saying is that in wording or classification......there is a gossamer fine line between tool and weapon.

I suppose Shakespeare's line, a rose by any other name is still a rose might be seen differently here.........a tool might be a weapon if used as one...regardless of what it is called.


PHOTO: a very formidable looking TOOL, known as the Canary tool.

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by Legendary_Jarl

Hello,

I remember seeing somewhere that people from the Canary Islands were prohibited from owning/making weapons such as swords and daggers. Therefore I don't believe these daggers you have came from the Canary Islands.

I remember seeing somewhere that fully automatic weapons were prohibited to commoners in the EU, yet I'm told of their discharge at wedding ceremonies in Crete in the recent past.

Hard to cook and eat without knives, I've found. Meat is particularly challenging to deal with in the absence of tools.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Bob A

I remember seeing somewhere that fully automatic weapons were prohibited to commoners in the EU, yet I'm told of their discharge at wedding ceremonies in Crete in the recent past.

Hello Bob,

There is no uniform weapon law in the EU, every country has its own weapon law.

Regards,
Detlef

[fernando]

Not wishing to embark aboard the recurrent tool/weapon saga, i suspect this time the Canary knife was undoubtedly conceived to be an agriculture utensil, eventually having undergone design adjustments for banana harvesting, for one. Its connotation with the term Nife, from the English Knife to the Spanish, even Portuguese slang Naifa, ought not transform this tool into a weapon.
If you guys care to translate this article to your own language, you have a good chance for such subject perusal.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuchillo_canario

[CutlassCollector]

"Described as "18th–19th C Spanish or Philippines Naval Dirk""

Jumping back to Post 1.
And obviously ignoring the intricate handle, but it does have a slight resemblance to the 1833 French government issue of the Naval dagger (Poignard de Marine), although this had a triangular section blade.

This may explain the above description connecting it to a 'Naval Dirk'. I have never seen reference to a Spanish or Philippine version.

It was part of the Systeme 1833 suite of weapons and came with a leather or metal triangular sheath.

[Legendary_Jarl]

Originally Posted by Bob A

I remember seeing somewhere that fully automatic weapons were prohibited to commoners in the EU, yet I'm told of their discharge at wedding ceremonies in Crete in the recent past.

Hard to cook and eat without knives, I've found. Meat is particularly challenging to deal with in the absence of tools.

Not every knife is a weapon even if they can be used as such. In fact, most knives have been used as cutting tools throughout time. Canario knives were not considered weapons even if at times they could have been used as such. That is why I said "weapons such as swords and daggers" which are clearly primarily intended to be used as weapon even if at times they could potentially be used as tools. See the difference?

It is kinda concerning that when I wrote "weapons were banned" people assumed "every blade was banned". Are you from the UK? lol

What is pictured above in the OP, in my opinion, is clearly intended as a weapon and has nothing to do with the Canary Islands. I mean compare the craftmanship with that of actual Canario Knives. The craftmanship of this dagger is quite poor. And actually now that I think about it what is pictured above is not even called "dagger"(daga) in Spanish. Small stabbing implements like that are PUÑAL.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Legendary_Jarl

What is pictured above in the OP, in my opinion, is clearly intended as a weapon and has nothing to do with the Canary Islands. I mean compare the craftmanship with that of actual Canario Knives. The craftmanship of this dagger is quite poor. And actually now that I think about it what is pictured above is not even called "dagger"(daga) in Spanish. Small stabbing implements like that are PUÑAL.

Thank you for the clarification and I agree with you, the dagger which started the thread has nothing to do with Canary Island knives!

Regards,
Detlef