English Naval Cutlass or English Lead Cutter

drac2k · 5th March 2024, 03:51 PM

Once again a wealth of information and thanks to all.
Yes, I realize that the mode of thinking in the late 19th Century regarding swords was that longer was better; this reflected a change in tactics from slashing to thrusting as evidenced by the development of our Patton Sword. Obviously, when sitting atop a horse, the extra length would be desirable.
Also in the period in which you referenced, horses and mules were an intricate part of an army, for transportation, logistical support, etc, this era mostly predated mechanized vehicles, etc., and even if they had them, the rough muddy terrain that they often found themselves in would have negated their usefulness and as such the Cavalry was a necessary component of warfare.
As there was a change in the mindset of the Cavalry, I was wondering if there was a progression in maritime fighting tactics. Examples of shorter cutlass such as the German M1911, the Austrian M1858, the Swedish M1851, the US 1917, and others led me to this question.
Cutlass Collector, you are 100% correct, the button is spring-loaded and there is a slot on the scabbard.

adrian · 5th March 2024, 07:04 PM

Move that to bayonets where there are tens of thousands then a low serial number would be even rarer.

Approaching this logically no ship would have carried many hundreds of sea service muskets and bayonets and the chances of finding a low rack number on a sea service small arm in fact would be rather high as there were so many ships and craft of smaller size, carrying small numbers of small arms; many engaged in anti smuggling duties, etc. Below is such a bayonet with a low number:

CutlassCollector · 5th March 2024, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

Move that to bayonets where there are tens of thousands then a low serial number would be even rarer.

Approaching this logically no ship would have carried many hundreds of sea service muskets and bayonets and the chances of finding a low rack number on a sea service small arm in fact would be rather high as there were so many ships and craft of smaller size, carrying small numbers of small arms; many engaged in anti smuggling duties, etc. Below is such a bayonet with a low number:

Yes, of course, but I meant serial numbers instead of rack numbers for bayonets.

David R · 11th March 2024, 11:45 AM

A very nice item and some interesting and informative replies. My money was on a lead-cutter til I made my way down the thread... the spring clip clinched it and removed all doubt. Private purchase cutlass for certain. Congratulations.

adrian · 11th March 2024, 07:56 PM

Yes, of course, but I meant serial numbers instead of rack numbers for bayonets.

Well you have me perplexed then - what is a 'serial number' on a sea service socket bayonet of the period under discussion?

Peter Hudson · 12th March 2024, 12:10 AM

I was a bit baffled by this terminology but I get it now... Wikipedia states Quote.
"The lead cutter sword was a weapon modelled on the cutlass, designed for use in shows and demonstrations of swordsmanship in the late Victorian era. Wilkinson Sword made these swords in four sizes, no. 1 to no. 4, of increasing weight to suit the strength of the user. The lead cutter was so named because in demonstrations it was used to cut a lead bar in half. Wilkinson included a mould for the lead bar with each purchase of their swords".Unquote.
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 8th April 2024, 08:16 PM

The web provides us with a considerable load of facts on Royal Navy weapons...I hesitate to use the term Cutlasses ...because that term never really caught on until very lately.
Anyway here is the website which I am pleased to see does mention The Cutlass... ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_cutlasses I was surprised to see that these weapons werent issued to Royal Marines who were issued with those incredibly long bayonets ...

I am by chance just refurbishing my Royal Marines artefacts and today I picked up a good Scabbard and sword knot...and I have located a Wilkinson Sword that will fit with the plan. Reading the exploits of Mad Jack Churchill I noted that not only did he use a longbow but during the Normandy landings was armed with a Royal Marines Officers Sword.
Peter Hudson.

5th March 2024, 07:04 PM	#2
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 130	Move that to bayonets where there are tens of thousands then a low serial number would be even rarer. Approaching this logically no ship would have carried many hundreds of sea service muskets and bayonets and the chances of finding a low rack number on a sea service small arm in fact would be rather high as there were so many ships and craft of smaller size, carrying small numbers of small arms; many engaged in anti smuggling duties, etc. Below is such a bayonet with a low number: Attached Images

12th March 2024, 12:10 AM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	Lead Cutter?? I was a bit baffled by this terminology but I get it now... Wikipedia states Quote. "The lead cutter sword was a weapon modelled on the cutlass, designed for use in shows and demonstrations of swordsmanship in the late Victorian era. Wilkinson Sword made these swords in four sizes, no. 1 to no. 4, of increasing weight to suit the strength of the user. The lead cutter was so named because in demonstrations it was used to cut a lead bar in half. Wilkinson included a mould for the lead bar with each purchase of their swords".Unquote. Peter Hudson.

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5th March 2024, 03:51 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Once again a wealth of information and thanks to all. Yes, I realize that the mode of thinking in the late 19th Century regarding swords was that longer was better; this reflected a change in tactics from slashing to thrusting as evidenced by the development of our Patton Sword. Obviously, when sitting atop a horse, the extra length would be desirable. Also in the period in which you referenced, horses and mules were an intricate part of an army, for transportation, logistical support, etc, this era mostly predated mechanized vehicles, etc., and even if they had them, the rough muddy terrain that they often found themselves in would have negated their usefulness and as such the Cavalry was a necessary component of warfare. As there was a change in the mindset of the Cavalry, I was wondering if there was a progression in maritime fighting tactics. Examples of shorter cutlass such as the German M1911, the Austrian M1858, the Swedish M1851, the US 1917, and others led me to this question. Cutlass Collector, you are 100% correct, the button is spring-loaded and there is a slot on the scabbard.

11th March 2024, 11:45 AM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	A very nice item and some interesting and informative replies. My money was on a lead-cutter til I made my way down the thread... the spring clip clinched it and removed all doubt. Private purchase cutlass for certain. Congratulations.

11th March 2024, 07:56 PM	#5
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 130	Yes, of course, but I meant serial numbers instead of rack numbers for bayonets. Well you have me perplexed then - what is a 'serial number' on a sea service socket bayonet of the period under discussion?

8th April 2024, 08:16 PM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 315	The web provides us with a considerable load of facts on Royal Navy weapons...I hesitate to use the term Cutlasses ...because that term never really caught on until very lately. Anyway here is the website which I am pleased to see does mention The Cutlass... ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_cutlasses I was surprised to see that these weapons werent issued to Royal Marines who were issued with those incredibly long bayonets ... I am by chance just refurbishing my Royal Marines artefacts and today I picked up a good Scabbard and sword knot...and I have located a Wilkinson Sword that will fit with the plan. Reading the exploits of Mad Jack Churchill I noted that not only did he use a longbow but during the Normandy landings was armed with a Royal Marines Officers Sword. Peter Hudson.