1630s English basket hilts

[urbanspaceman]

This is an extract from the internal history of the Cutlers Company of London regarding Benjamin Stone who had a grinding mill in Hounslow before going to Oxford with King Charles (1st).
In a statement regarding his business:
"In July of 1631 he delivered 4,356 hilted swords to the Tower with basket hilts."
My question is what sort of baskets would these have been?
It was well known he was criticised for using cast brass hilts but were they baskets?

[fernando]

Keith, i don't know if you have been through this material; Benjamim Stone was much of a blade smith, apparently the hilts being made by someone else. Perhaps you wish to take a look at this article; scrolling down to
The Hounslow Factory, where (some of) Benjamim's saga is described.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando thank you for linking this great article by Hayward, who was a brilliant authority on English swords. The topic of the Hounslow shops is a most esoteric subject and as noted, Benjamin Stone was an ambitious entrepeneur who though not a swordsmith himself, put together a sort of confederation of them here, outside the jurisdiction of the London Cutlers Co. with a number of German smiths who were brought to England in 1629.

I am wondering if the 'basket hilts' mentioned may have been a proto version of the familiar 'mortuary' swords of the English Civil Wars. While these are typically associated with the period after the execution of Charles I (1649) it is known these were around before that, with some suggesting the earliest were c. 1635.

Though the 'mortuary' is technically a 'half basket', it is included with the basket hilts in typologies and the basket term was likely collectively used.

Attached image of a 'mortuary' c.1640 believed Hounslow, Solingen 'ANDREA FERARA' blade, revealing the numbers of German made blades used in Hounslow despite the notion all blades were made there.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernando... yes, I am familiar with that material.
Those luxurious British basket hilts shown are what have ended-up in museums globally, but, although contemporary, they were private purchases.
4,356 swords meant munition's grade and this is what I am interested in.
At that time we were no longer engaged in the five years of Anglo-Spanish war ('25-'30); plus, we had also fought the French for a couple of years '27-'29, so we would have certainly needed to replenish munitions.
However, ongoing, we were helping in the Dutch-Portuguese war and sixty years of that certainly required constant supplies of serviceable weapons.
You can see why there was money to be made supplying the Tower. Stone invested heavily but was well rewarded. He supplied complete outfits too: sword, scabbard, belt and etc.
So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim, I was busy writing at the same time.
I'd looked at the early Mortuary and half-baskets but felt they were much too flimsy for extensive militia arming.

Incidentally, I saw reference made to Mortuary hilts having come from Islay; and while there was a huge black-smithing empire in long-term existence there, I don't know why we would buy our kit from the farthest point in the British Isles. Especially back then, when there was no whisky coming from there. The only thing they had to offer was peat... and trouble.

As I mentioned, Stone was heavily criticised for making his hilts from cast brass, which the Cutlers Company regarded as too breakable, unlike iron.
So, that tends towards Walloons doesn't it? Were they in use here back then?

[Jim McDougall]

I think the munitions grade term would apply to the numbers of forms of swords with various configurations of saltires and shields in the 16th century (even latter 15th) through Europe and considered 'basket hilt' prototypes.

These were well known in England, and one in particular is this one found on the 'Mary Rose' which sank in 1545. While this one is mostly intact, there was evidence of at least two others like it or similar found in concretions. This suggests the military 'munitions' category.
In subsequent years these kinds of 'basket' hilted swords were also well known in the Netherlands, as shown in numerous examples in the paper by the late Claude Blair "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" ("Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800" ed. David Caldwell, 1981).

It is clear that these basket hilt types (which indeed inspired the 'mortuary' type half basket as well as fully developed Highland basket hilt (then called Irish) were well circulating in the times in question. Most of the examples in Blair seem to date around 1570s or slightly later, and likely the form or perhaps even actual examples remained in use or actively issued for some time .

The question is, as noted, what sort of 'basket hilts' would have been provided to the Tower in 1631. We can only guess they must have been of this form loosely followed, if Stone indeed produced them. Or did Stone, the clever enterpreneur simply provide stores of surplus swords from these earlier campaigns? The Hounslow enterprise was hardly well tooled by 1631 (the Germans brought there in 1629).
It remains a good question.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... So, in 1631, what would an English/British munitions grade basket used in the Dutch-Portuguese war have looked like?...

How about considering some of the examples pictured in the above (myArmoury) link ?

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, we seem to be crossing posts! Good note on walloons, but they would not be termed basket hilts. Trying to find more on Stone and his 'enterprises'. As Fernando has observed, and we have found in earlier study, he was hardly a sword 'maker', but more an enterprising dealer. The note on brass is interesting and another reason he liked being outside the scope of the Cutlers Co.

[Jim McDougall]

In "British Military Swords" by Stuart Mowbray, 2013, p.42
"...Stone was a member of the Cutlers Co.who was already supplying large consignments of IMPORTED SWORDS to the ordnance".
Referring to the bringing in of German smiths from Holland in 1629. It is noted he became associated with Hounslow from then until the exodus of many of the smiths to Oxford in 1642 but it took some time to get things running.

This 'basket' , Dutch, c. 1560, seems to be of the general form of that period in Netherlands and in England (the commonality between Dutch and English swords seems well established) and likely for some time. It is interesting of course that when Charles I recruited German smiths in 1629, they came from Holland. In these times in England swords which were often German were termed 'Dutch', with 'duetsche' being the intended term.

the page from Blair, (1981, op.cit.).

[urbanspaceman]

I think the Mary Rose sword is the answer; I have to confess to complete ignorance regarding the Mary Rose but then I'm still very much climbing a steep learning curve in almost all aspects of arms and militaria.
Holland does keep appearing on the radar however.
Given our long standing (60 years) involvement in the Dutch/Portuguese war, it would not surprise me if those basket hilts (as posted) were exactly what Stone was supplying.
I suggested that after the other two wars recently ended that we may have needed serious re-arming, but perhaps Stone was re-furbishing arms returned home to rust.
The issue of the rapidity of supply by Stone is well taken: 3,500+ swords in two years staring from scratch seems rather unlikely.
There was a constant war going on between Stone and the Cutlers Company; it is probably impossible to establish the rights and wrongs of the issues, considering just how many issues there were in attendance at any given moment.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I think the Mary Rose sword is the answer; I have to confess to complete ignorance regarding the Mary Rose but then I'm still very much climbing a steep learning curve in almost all aspects of arms and militaria.
Holland does keep appearing on the radar however.
Given our long standing (60 years) involvement in the Dutch/Portuguese war, it would not surprise me if those basket hilts (as posted) were exactly what Stone was supplying.
I suggested that after the other two wars recently ended that we may have needed serious re-arming, but perhaps Stone was re-furbishing arms returned home to rust.
The issue of the rapidity of supply by Stone is well taken: 3,500+ swords in two years staring from scratch seems rather unlikely.
There was a constant war going on between Stone and the Cutlers Company; it is probably impossible to establish the rights and wrongs of the issues, considering just how many issues there were in attendance at any given moment.

I have had to reread much of the detail on the Mary Rose as I cannot claim any particular knowledge on this most historic shipwreck. However in looking through details today, I was surprised to discover there was not just one of the basket type swords, but several (which did not survive physically but details in concretion revealed their shapes etc) so clearly they were in use in numbers.
Similar types of basket hilt had been known in England even earlier, with examples found in the Jamestown colony in America in 1607, and one found in the wreck of the "Sea Venture" off Bermuda in 1609 (the inspiration for Shakespeares "The Tempest"). Mazansky did a radiological study of this sword in several articles.

From what I have understood, while Stone had membership in the Cutlers Co. he operated outside the jurisdictional boundaries, and as the Hounslow operation had been sanctioned by Charles I, he sort of had that in his favor so was basically left alone. The entire circumstances involving imported blades, swords etc. were wrought with intrigues, and the entirety of these matters for generations is clouded with mystery and deception, much of which you have set straight in your research and book. Yet much remains unclear, and may never be revealed for certain.

All of this has revealed the extensive and often complex development of the basket hilt leading to that of the Highland basket hilt which was actually earlier than often realized and apparently evolved in English and European contexts prior to the Scottish adoption in the now familiar forms.

[Peter Hudson]

From; https://maryrose.org/meet-the-soldiers/

[urbanspaceman]

I came across the American Society of Arms Collectors website and an article by Jeffrey Ross on 'The Evolution of the basket hilted sword form from the 16th to the 18th centuries'.
I am sure this society is well known to you all.
The article is most informative and shows excellent examples of basket hilts.

Again, I am certain this is all old news to most of you but it is fascinating new territory to me and continues the input from you folks to establish what was almost certainly the Stone 'baskets' of 1631. See below.
The first from 1550 is described as either English or Scottish.
The second from 1590 is Scottish.
The final from 1625 is English and probably what Stone supplied.

The question that remains unanswered is: was Stone able to produce the numbers of 'new' swords he claimed. He invested heavily at the start (£8,000) and may well have been up and running rapidly enough to supply the "1,000 complete swords a month, of equivalent quality at a lower price than German imports"; the king certainly believed him.

What is especially interesting to me is that Birmingham blades were appearing at The Tower at that time (1630) and were universally declared as unacceptably inferior. A century later they had not improved much; it took the arrival of Shotley Bridge smiths to raise the standard.
The Oleys arrived there soon after:
the first indication I have found so far is William Olley (sic) in 1738. William was a second generation (born 1699) Shotley Bridge forger.
It has long been obvious to me that someone brought high quality forging techniques into Birmingham.
I am wondering if perhaps Olley established his own forge down there and supplied local swordsmiths... hence the appearance of the Oley symbol of the Bushy Tailed Fox.

I fear I have moved beyond my initial subject.

[Jim McDougall]

Peter, thank you for the image of the complete sword from the Mary Rose.
Your thread on this famous shipwreck is outstanding, and I wanted to chime in with focus on the weaponry, most notably of course this basket hilt. Here is the perfect alignment of that.
What I found amazing from some material I found is that there were apparently more of these types aboard as well, so clearly in use by one of the military contingents. This one appears to be the only one that survived intact.

Keith,
I think you are spot on with the form basket surmised to be the likely one Stone supplied. While he was 'tooling up' the Hounslow enterprise from 1629 it is noted he was 'importing' foreign swords (not just blades). It seems unlikely that the King cared where the swords were from. In this entire situation it seems apparent that the import of German blades to in effect 'salt' the production volume at Hounslow was in degree present through the scope of its presence. Stone was enterprising enough to 'broker' these kinds of deals...he was supplying swords...regardless of who made them, however the King wanted them produced in England ...Stone likely made it seem as though they were.

The Oley's and the fox has been a quandary for some time, and that connection seems to have solved the mystery of the 'running fox' (cf. running wolf of Passau) of Birmingham.

While some of these details may be perceived as outside the topic at hand in discussion, they are often inextricably pertinent in the overall understanding of the subject matter.

[Triarii]

I suspect that the basket hilts were more like the bottom right photo above. The contemporary illustrations show an evolution of hilt shapes towards more complete basket hilts by the early C17th. The slightly later Basing House (1645 at latest) and Sandal Castle swords (1646 latest) are very much like the bottom right example. Sandal Castle sword is below (the rusty one) and also my c.1620 version, very similar to both those siege finds.
I'll go digging, but basket hilts were recommended for forces sent to Ireland and for the militia.

In 1614 the London Cutlers Company were supplying 'Irish hilts' and 'open hilts' suggesting again that Irish hilts were close hilts.

Francis Markham, writing in 'Five Decades of Epistles of Warre' in 1622 (he was also the muster master for Nottinghamshire so should know about military matters) recommended swords with 'the hilt of basket fashion, round and well compact', which I take to be the fully developed basket hilt. He also says that musketeers should carry a sword 'with a basket hilt of a nimble and round proportion after the manner of the Irish'.

Portraits from the 1640s and 50s attributed to Colonel Hutchinson, Colonel Booth and one of Edward Massey all show (higher quality) basket hilts of the more developed form but not significantly different from the 1620s form, though flatter bars have become more the norm.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm afraid I'm a little confused by your references to photos - other than your indication of the two examples you posted.
It may be that your browser is displaying the images in a different sequence to mine.
Could you perhaps clarify if possible.
What makes it harder is my ignorance of the examples you refer to i.e Basing House and Sandal Castle.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree, the reference to the photos depicted are a bit confusing, though the 'top' image of the 'very rusty' sword from 'Sandal Castle' which was destroyed in 1646. Apparently this example has a curved blade which is seemingly unusual for a basket hilt, (turcael in Gaelic description).

Blair (1981, from his excellent "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain, from which most of this material is derived), the terminus post quem for this type of basket hilt is set at the 1646 date, however it is well known that these type of hilts was hardly 'old fashioned' by mid 17th century. Hilts of these types while having subtle variations were of fundamentally similar construction much earlier, and dating is somewhat difficult as they were in use over such an extended period.
The Sandal Castle sword is held at Wakefield Museum, the Basing House example is lost, having been stolen from its place of holding.

These early hilt types were known by the terms 'Irish, close or basket' it seems rather interchangeably. Blair specifies that the first recorded use of the 'basket hilt' term was in Shakespeare (Henry IV, Part II, 1597). The 'Irish' term it is specifically noted had nothing to do with these basket hilts being used in Ireland or produced there, but was more a collective term referring to 'Gaelic', if I have understood correctly.

Returning to the curved blade on the Sandal example, this is an interesting aside;
On p.241, footnote #34, it is noted there are references in 1586 to semetaries (scimitars?) or Turky swordes in inventories. The comparison of course suggests turky= curved.
Further, the Cutlers Co. and others were supplying swords with Turkey blades for City Bands in 1642, while in 1622 Francis Markham wrote that "the blade of a musketeers BASKET HILTED sword should be broad, strong and somewhat massie(sic) of which the Turkie or Bilboe are the best. '

We know bilbo was an English term for the highly regarded straight blades of Spain, coming out of the port of Bilboe in the north......and Turkey of course seems to refer to 'curved'.

These references suggest that the hilt form of the Sandal sword (shown in previous post) may well be the form delivered by Stone in 1631, as the basic hilt structure had been in use, and clearly delivered in number in 1622 by the Cutlers Co.
As the form had been in use (in some variation, but fundamentally the same) as early as 1614, 1622 and these forms remained in use well into the century, it seems highly probable that Stones examples were of this type.
Who assembled these and where is unclear, but possibly in the Hounslow compound where shops were being situated post 1629.

[Triarii]

Apologies - the one with the pale background and cord wrapped grip.

The Sandal Castle example (the rusty and bent one in my post - the museum confirmed it is bent as it appears curved in the commonly used photo) was excavated in 1989 and is held by Wakefield Museum. The castle was battered into submission in 1646 (to the extent that the defenders had to dig a trench across the remains of the keep so they could move about) during the English Civil War.

Basing House was stormed by the parliamentarians in Oct 1645 and the basket hilt was found during excavations there in 1971. It's apparently now missing. It's pretty much the same as the one I have.

[Lee]

The second hilt in Triarii's post above brought to mind this previously discussed basket hilt sword attributed to be of English origin: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25974

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Lee, this is good stuff.

[dralin23]

I also have a beautiful motuary sword in my collection, here are some pictures of it. It was housed in an old armory for many years, which is why it is completely covered in a dark patina.

[Jim McDougall]

dralin,outstanding example of a 'mortuary' !! and all the better retaining that lovely patina! These swords regarded as 'half basket' were intriguing developments in these types close hilts evolving contemporary to the forms of full baskets. While we have discussed the terms for full basket hilts as 'Irish' "close' or 'basket hilt' for these, I wonder what term or if any of these were applied in vernacular of the time for these 'mortuaries'.
The 'mortuary' term is of course a Victorian 'collectors' term presuming the facial devices were 'deaths head' of Charles I (d.1649) but obviously misapplied as these hilts preceded that event by at least 10 years, and the motif was popular on various sword hilts.

Lee, that was an amazing thread from several years ago, and brings to mind an interesting aspect of the basket hilt conundrum, that of the Italian 'schiavona'. I note that these were not exclusive to Venice, but somewhat widely used throughout the Italian states.

The question was posed whether or not the schiavona was used or known in Great Britain, and of course with that, wondering if these may have been the influence for the Highland basket hilt. Naturally that theory has been long defeated as structurally the hilts are quite different, except obviously their closed nature.

However, when considering influences it is difficult to determine if some degree or notion of likenesses might have come into the process of development. We know that the Scots were noted as being ready mercenary forces, and that they had served in various European theaters and campaigns which certainly provided exposure to various weapon forms which they brought back.

While the 'basket' form hilt had been well developed in North Europe on the dusagge and so called 'Sinclair' types and is generally regarded as the key influence for the Highland basket hilt, it is clear that these types of close hilt were already well known in England.

The evolution of the well known trellis type basket of the schiavona seems to be contemporary with the evolution of these baskets in Europe and England if not perhaps slightly later.

Whether the schiavona was ever used in its developed form in Scotland or Great Britain is a good question, and as far as I have known, like many weapon forms, there was certainly incidental presence. In what I have learned of the famed 'Border Reivers' of North England and Scottish border regions, the schiavona was among the wide range of weaponry in use by them.

In Scotland, the fabled myth of ANDREA FERARA of course pertains to the Italian (Belluno) swordsmith of the 16th century, who with his brother indeed had contracts for blades with Scotland which evolved into the perplexing mystery of these ubiquitous signed blades which spanned over centuries.

Prince Charlie, Charles Edward Stuart, was born in Rome in 1720, with of course the distinct connection of the Catholic monarchy of the Stuarts to the Papacy.

These factors all suggest that the schiavona was certainly known in Great Britain, but likely had only minor influence on the developing basket hilts there in later periods, and again probably only incidental.

While off course a bit as to the original question, this pertains to the types of basket hilts either evolving or in place c. 1631, so salient to a degree.

[dralin23]

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello jim,
Thank you for your very interesting explanation of the origins of this sword name. It was unknown to me and I hadn't researched it yet.
In any case, it is really instructive for me to explain that these masks or faces on the basket are supposed to be the head of the killed king.
In any case, there is always enough material left over to discuss and I'm also happy that you can learn completely new things about your swords here on the forum.

Absolutely my pleasure! and I learn from every example put up for discussion, the research, and sharing of information. I have always believed we all learn together here in these great threads. The notion of the 'death mask' is but one of the many fanciful notions created by early writers and extensions of popular lore surrounding historic lore and figures. These 'collectors terms' are many and always intriguing in how they came about.
Again, yours is a wonderful example.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim.
Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona.
I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad.
Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection.
I should add this into the mix:
It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle.
I'm sniffing around this issue.

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Jim.
Well mentioned; it has long been my belief that many Reivers carried a schiavona.
I am certain Peter has details of the mercenary activities of the disinherited and outlawed border clans who were available for hire abroad.
Equally, as you point out, the obsession with Andrea Ferara blades and Bonnie Prince Charlie strengthens the Italian connection.
I should add this into the mix:
It is interesting that the first nationwide mention of a basket hilt referred to it as "Irish" because there is also this recently suggested business of 'mortuary' hilts being made in Islay which was the original home of the Dalriadic tribes that encompassed North Eastern Eire as well as Argyle.
I'm sniffing around this issue.

Hello Keith...Indeed you have a point! I looked up Border Reiver Swords on the Web and it is clearly there...thus I place it below. Not surprising noting how the flow of mercenaries back and forth to and from Europe and its many wars. A lot of these weapons would naturally have remained in the homes of Border Reivers simply through the habit of these men simply flowing back to civilian life after a spell abroad...In fact it ws also the habit of Henry VIII to release men fro the payroll once they had returned from time overseas in European skirmishes and wars...Another Border Reiver sword I often see noted in documents is the Winger.
In another web related search I noted that the so called Schiavana shown here could be described more accurately ...From https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl...in-museum.html
I Quote" And whilst the weapon above is strictly speaking not a Schiavona… since the developed form of that weapon is unlikely to have been in use this early…. then it is quite possible that this may be the prototype, and therefore it is probably best referred to as a “Germanic, Schiavona Prototype.”Unquote.


Regards Peter.

[Peter Hudson]

please see https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl...11-curved.html for some detail about the WHINJER .....also shown there on an ancient woodcut. Clearly displayed as a curved sword with a heavy backblade. Some suggest the word WHINJER comes from the word HANGER. ...

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Peter. There is so much fascinating and exclusive material on Brian's website that it needs to be brought to everyone's attention.
Your links are a perfect way of achieving this, well done.

[Jim McDougall]

Peter, RESOUNDING!!
Your online search skills have always amazed me, much in the way that Keith has always been a super sleuth in primary research! I walk among giants

This is a perfect example of how the 'schiavona' has become regarded as one of the Border Reivers edged weapons, and how these 'Germanic' basket hilted swords became a facilitating factor in the evolution of 'British' basket hilts.

It has been well established that the 'basket hilt' was in use in primary forms in England as evidenced by the "Mary Rose' examples of the 16th century, but how these evolved into the Highland basket hilt seems likely to have degree of catalyst via these Border regions.

The generally held theory has always been that the Highland basket hilt (Irish hilt termed in period) owed its inspiration to the northern 'Germanic' short, stout hangers (dusagge, Sinclair et al) which were often with these developed , 'caged' hilts. This was based on the fact that Scottish mercenaries were often on campaign on retainer in many European regions.
This notably also gave us the Gaelic term 'turcael' (=cf. Turkish) for the curved blades occasionally on basket hilts, inspired by the curved sabers of 'Turkish' form in the campaigns in East Europe.

Victorian arms writers even presumed that due to the 'caged' effect of the fully developed basket hilts similar to schiavona, this presumed the possible inspiration came from Italy. This theory was of course defeated (Blair, 1980) by the fact that the 'trellis' construction of the schiavona was quite different than the shield and saltire of British basket hilts. This of course I have described in my earlier posts, but wanted to reiterate here.

However, the connection may be in degree reconsidered in that these 'Germanic schiavona' basket hilts of 16th century, which indeed influenced the basket hilt in Great Britain, equally seems to have lent to the likely evolution of the schiavona (proper) in Italy. Actually the 'root' for the schiavona has always been deemed from the simple S guard swords of Hungary which were prevalent in Croatia. The Croatians were of course diplomatically aligned with Venice, where the ultimate development of the schiavona independently evolved.

I like the writing (and thinking) of the writer in the link re: the 'hanger' formerly in the Border Reivers museum (c.1560) and his notes on the 'Maltese cross' on the pommel. The cross hatch is missing on one arm of the cross, and he 'dares' (contrary to academic convention) to offer the suggestion of 'hidden meaning' in that deliberate omission, noting the 'fanciful' nature. This is a term I have become notably familiar with in many such suggestions I have offered over the years in investigating markings and motifs.

The important notes on the etymological connections with hanger/whinger (various spellings) are well placed as these terms (as well as cutlass') are often used interchangeably in period records, accounts and references.

[Triarii]

On cutlasses, in his 'THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ART MILITARIE, Practised in the Warres of the United Netherlands', (1639) Henry Hexham, who was QM to Lord Goring, has a plate showing a set of pikemans equipment, with a straight bladed sword (knucklebow, ring guard and straight quillions). It's labelled 'The Cutlas'.