Figural !

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by werecow

I love that keris grip btw. As a kid I often went to the ethnography museum with my parents here in Leiden, and the colorful Indonesian (and particularly Balinese) demon masks and Rangda in particular always creeped me out in a good way. Those creepy lidless eyes, those tusks, and that tongue! I love good horror imagery and monsters of any sort, but I have to admit that western demons don't really compare to the Balinese version.

To quote a dear departed friend where Bali iconography is concerned, "Even the Goodies have teeth"

[Rick]

That's a very nice grouping; excellent workmanship!
What or who is the figure on the right side of the image?
Great additions to the thread! Thanks

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

That's a very nice grouping; excellent workmanship!
What or who is the figure on the right side of the image?
Great additions to the thread! Thanks

Rick, this thread may be of some insight.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27190

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by Rick

That's a very nice grouping; excellent workmanship!
What or who is the figure on the right side of the image?
Great additions to the thread! Thanks

Thank you Rick.

It’s a horse.

[Sajen]

A new addition to the collection, a Lombok handle.

[Interested Party]

Interesting and well done pieces. JustYS and Sajen do you know the approximate age of your examples?

For my edification, Sajen yours is Hanapu? JustYS from left yours are 1. Unknown 2 Vishnu and Guarda 3. Rakshasa 4. Ganesh 5. Unknown I can't see what he is holding for a clue 6. Rangda and a snack. 7. Horse with no visible wings.

[David]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Pick up couple of Balinese hilts for my small but growing collection.
It’s almost as addictive as Keris…..

Nice contemporary carvings Just. Yes, there are some folks who only collect hilts. I can see why it can be addictive.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Interesting and well done pieces. JustYS and Sajen do you know the approximate age of your examples?

For my edification, Sajen yours is Hanapu? JustYS from left yours are 1. Unknown 2 Vishnu and Guarda 3. Rakshasa 4. Ganesh 5. Unknown I can't see what he is holding for a clue 6. Rangda and a snack. 7. Horse with no visible wings.

Hello IP,

I can only guess the age of my hilt, it's used and show age, made from buffalo horn. 50 to 100 years? It's a monkey but I don't think that it should represent Hanuman.

Regards,
Detlef

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Interesting and well done pieces. JustYS and Sajen do you know the approximate age of your examples?

For my edification, Sajen yours is Hanapu? JustYS from left yours are 1. Unknown 2 Vishnu and Guarda 3. Rakshasa 4. Ganesh 5. Unknown I can't see what he is holding for a clue 6. Rangda and a snack. 7. Horse with no visible wings.

Hi IP,

As David said, mines are mostly contemporary (20th/21st century hilts).

From left to right:
1. Wayang character
2. Vishnu riding Garuda
3. Rakshasa/Demon
4. Ganesha
5. The carver said Prabu (King), could be Rama but not sure
6. Rangda
7. Horse

[A. G. Maisey]

I have just finished reading a very good book, it is a translation from French of the ethnographic accounts of Pierre Dubois, Helen Creese, an Australian academic is the author, the title is "Bali in the Early Nineteenth Century".

Much of the content was familiar to me from other reading that I have done, but all the same there was a lot, a real lot, of things I did not know.

The reason why I have mentioned it here is that I now understand why it is that identification of the characters portrayed in Balinese totogan hilts is somewhere between difficult & impossible in many cases. Often even the carvers are not aware of the character they are carving.

A bit peculiar?

Well, in the book I just mentioned I discovered that way back in the early 19th century in Bali, the Brahmins absolutely controlled the depiction of totogan characters, they would provide a carver with a description, a sketch, or a rough example, sometimes an old example, and the carver would carve it to the Brahmin's instructions. They did not know what they were carving, they only knew what the Brahmin client wanted.

Another factor to consider is this:- even if the name of the totogan character has been correctly given, we still do not know exactly who the hilt is supposed to represent, it is very likely to be the grand father or father of somebody.

So it is perhaps best not to get too caught up in IDing Bali hilt characters, in the past, and through to today, it is a guessing game.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by milandro

I have just added this Hulu to my collection.( the picture on the left)

It is said to depict the goddess Devi Sarawati which represents knowledge, music, art, speech, wisdom, and learning. She is also part of the Tridevi with goddesses Lakshmi and Parvati.

I believe this was carved in the '70.

The material should be albino water buffalo horn ( or white Kerbau )

Interestingly at the same auction where I acquired my Hulu there was also ANOTHER (Right in the picture) almost identical hilt which was mounted on a similar kris where this will be mounted .

I have just learned that the hilt is a representation of Putri Mandalika a Sasak princess whose figure overlaps and someone is identified with the one of Parvati . The goddess is worshipped by the Sasak population of Lombok but also on Bali.


I got this from a new friend , Duncan, who is a very knowledgeable hilt connoisseur , Very thankful to him.

[HughChen]

hilt

[milandro]

Originally Posted by HughChen

hilt

Are you sure this is a Kris hilt?

I think that this may be a the hilt ( or rather the handle) of a Betelnut chisel or cutter

they are generally more ornate and have often this truncated cone shape

these were sold (terminated auction, therefore allowed) and in my view are similar

[David]

I am in agreement with Milandro. More likely a Betel Nut tool.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, pelecok.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by milandro

Are you sure this is a Kris hilt?

I think that this may be a the hilt ( or rather the handle) of a Betelnut chisel or cutter

they are generally more ornate and have often this truncated cone shape

these were sold (terminated auction, therefore allowed) and in my view are similar

Originally Posted by David

I am in agreement with Milandro. More likely a Betel Nut tool.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, pelecok.

I'm not sure. We thought it was a hilt. Maybe the Betelnut chisel and Keris sometimes share a handle by native users.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, I'm sorry HughChen, but a keris hilt & a pelecok are two entirely different things & they do not share hilts. The pelecok is a tool, the keris is a socio-religious icon & a weapon.

There can be no doubt about this.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by HughChen

I'm not sure. We thought it was a hilt. Maybe the Betelnut chisel and Keris sometimes share a handle by native users.

Hello Chen,

I am with the others, it's a handle for a betel pestle, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel

Regards,
Detlef

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, I'm sorry HughChen, but a keris hilt & a pelecok are two entirely different things & they do not share hilts. The pelecok is a tool, the keris is a socio-religious icon & a weapon.

There can be no doubt about this.

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Chen,

I am with the others, it's a handle for a betel pestle, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel

Regards,
Detlef

Thank you for correcting of my misunderstanding. Based on those pics,T think maybe this horn one is also not a hilt, while the wooden one is a Balinese hilt.

[HughChen]

items of a finished auction. Very high quality.

[David]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Thank you for correcting of my misunderstanding. Based on those pics,T think maybe this horn one is also not a hilt, while the wooden one is a Balinese hilt.

I'm not sure what in Detlef's link gave you that impression. IMO this horn figural hilt is indeed a keris hilt.

[David]

Originally Posted by HughChen

items of a finished auction. Very high quality.

These are nice carvings Hugh, but honestly i would hesitate to label them as VERY high quality. First of all, usually the highest quality would be reserved for ivory, not only a more valuable material, but one that lends itself to a more detailed level of carving than bone. But even bone can be carved to a higher level of carving than the examples you show. Please understand i am not saying those examples are undesirable. As i stated, they are really nice hilts that i would surely welcome into my collection. But i just wanted you to be aware that they are not the highest level of Balinese carving skill.

[David]

Here are a couple of rather nice Bali hilts carved in bone. These two are contemporary carving which i believe are done with moose bone, which has become a popular medium for contemporary Balinese carvers. I believe the detail on these later carvings is fairly high quality.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not sure what in Detlef's link gave you that impression. IMO this horn figural hilt is indeed a keris hilt.

Hi David,

I guess Chen goes with the ferrule!

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi David,

I guess Chen goes with the ferrule!

Regards,
Detlef

Oh, my bad actually. I completely missed the small photo at the top of the page.
Frankly i'm not sure what that is a hilt for, but yes, the ferrule on that hilt would be unusual for a Balinese keris hilt.

[A. G. Maisey]

Post #229.

The small pic at top left:- not keris, could be pelecok, most likely a knife hilt.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not sure what in Detlef's link gave you that impression. IMO this horn figural hilt is indeed a keris hilt.

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi David,

I guess Chen goes with the ferrule!

Regards,
Detlef

Originally Posted by David

Oh, my bad actually. I completely missed the small photo at the top of the page.
Frankly i'm not sure what that is a hilt for, but yes, the ferrule on that hilt would be unusual for a Balinese keris hilt.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Post #229.

The small pic at top left:- not keris, could be pelecok, most likely a knife hilt.

Thank you all. yes, the pelecok gives me hint.

The wooden figural hilt with strange back head was sold last month in a Chinese ancient coin auction. Nobody except me knew what it was. Even the seller just introduced it as a carved wood. I wanted to buy it, but someone told me it was not really old, but artificially aged. So I quit.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

Here are a couple of rather nice Bali hilts carved in bone. These two are contemporary carving which i believe are done with moose bone, which has become a popular medium for contemporary Balinese carvers. I believe the detail on these later carvings is fairly high quality.

Yes David, I agree they are of high quality. But it's much easier to do high quality with electronic tools contemporarily.And New ones are open to sale in scale, whereas old good ones are difficult to find. Because of that, I think old carved hilts are still much more attractive to me.

Originally Posted by David

These are nice carvings Hugh, but honestly i would hesitate to label them as VERY high quality. First of all, usually the highest quality would be reserved for ivory, not only a more valuable material, but one that lends itself to a more detailed level of carving than bone. But even bone can be carved to a higher level of carving than the examples you show. Please understand i am not saying those examples are undesirable. As i stated, they are really nice hilts that i would surely welcome into my collection. But i just wanted you to be aware that they are not the highest level of Balinese carving skill.

I agree that ivory is always better, but ivory can cause some legal confusion so I'm afraid to be so into it that I cannot control myself to try to get one at legal risk.

It's a pleasure for me to see these high-quality carvings you've provided. Are these made of bone or ivory? It's beyond my ability to tell which are better, or to Rank them in terms of quality. If someone can do it to help me understand better, it will be much appreciated. In my naive eyes, I think they are as good as the pair I represent which was sold in a French aucion. I found them sold in very high price. I apologize for my lack of artistic sensitivity. Due to my sluggish appreciation ability, I have to rely on your expert view as an indicator to understand the quality of something. I myself can only tell which is good and which is not good, still lacking the ability to tell how good and which one is better .

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe that we need to differentiate between quality of execution, & quality of material, the two things are separate & different.

Post #81 in this thread is a hilt of mine, it is high quality material, 22K gold, and superb craftsmanship. This hilt displays both elements of quality in the single item.

With other hilts we should, I believe, make it clear if we are commenting on the material, or on the craftsmanship.