Pommel Ring on British Dragoon Swords 18th c.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

I was looking through my reference books (Bezdek, Wilkinson and Robson) on an unrelated topic, they show several illustrations of sword hilts with these pommel rings on cavalry swords that they date as late as the 1790s.

Looking at a couple of the basket hilts, one example was even dated into the early 1800s.

Interesting, which ones? I have the books, pages, item #.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interesting, which ones? I have the books, pages, item #.

Of course you had to ask!

British Military Swords - John Wilkinson Latham:
Plate 45. Dragoon officers sword

Swords of the British Army - Brian Robson:
Pg. 109 Plate 92. Hourse Grenadier Guards
Pg. 179 Plate 167. Grenadier Company Officers basket hilt
Pg. 190 Plate 183. Broadsword, Sergents, 42nd Foot
Pg. 194 Plates 187 and 188

Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland - Richard Bezdek
Pages 282 - 283
Pg. 284 - English Dragoon backsword c1755
Pg. 342 - English half basket infantry officer’s backsword

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much.............turns out all I have at the moment is Bezdek, my Robson is the old one (1975, which is about beat to death as I've had it since then); Wilkinson-Latham I have but not here.

I see what you mean on p.342 in Bezdek. That is a commemorative dragoon sword for an officer of loyal North British volunteers c.1790. It makes sense that they would use the older features in creating this sword.

In looking into these pommel rings, my goal has been to get an idea of when these began in use in British cavalry swords and roughly how long the feature remained in place. As suggested earlier, it is possible that certain makers might have kept the design in place longer than others, as swords were privately commissioned by the colonels of regiments and not officially regulated.

There were of course numerous variations of dragoon swords due to this.
Also, I would not expect there to be an exact terminus ante quem for the occurrence of the 'pommel ring'. There were bound to be instances of these in later sword hilts, and with the very attractive example from Bezdek (p.342) this is as noted a commemorative type and as such understandably rare, as noted by Bezdek. This was to the Loyalist North British Volunteers, again denoting the 'pommel ring' to British rather than specifically Scottish weapons.

Thank you for specifying the other examples, I'll check them further.

[Will M]

Here is another with ring and a search here could find more..

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-7439.html

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Will M

Here is another with ring and a search here could find more..

https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-7439.html

Thank you Will, that 'triangle' guard is another of those that fall into the same period as my example being discussed, around 1750, give or take a few years.
The thing I have been noting is that it seems by 1759, the pommel side mount became used, and the pommel ring seems to have largely ceased.
I'll need to locate another image of the one you note here as we are unable to post the Royal Armouries example.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much.............turns out all I have at the moment is Bezdek, my Robson is the old one (1975, which is about beat to death as I've had it since then); Wilkinson-Latham I have but not here.

British Military Swords - John Wilkinson Latham:


Swords of the British Army - Brian Robson:
Pg. 109 Plate 92. Hourse Grenadier Guards


Pg. 179 Plate 167. Grenadier Company Officers basket hilt


Pg. 190 Plate 183. Broadsword, Sergents, 42nd Foot


Pg. 194 Plates 187 and 188


Apologies that I clipped the description on 188; that's what happens first thing in the morning.

The 1798 Pattern Highland Regiment officers' swords are interesting because the ring pommel appears to be used regularly as part of that pattern. Probably not exactly what you're after, but it shows that the design continued to be used on basket hilts after it disappeared from other swords.

Looking at the examples, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the form is a hangover from basket-hilted swords, which remained as the cavalry officers' hilt form changed in the mid-18th century and finally fell out of use with the advent of pattern swords with a solid backstrap in 1796.

Of course, with all things of the period, there will be exceptions, but the popularity of a solid backstrap likely was the end of the 'pommel ring' for cavalry officers' swords.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for posting these!
Well observed on the solid backstrap terminus.
I think what we see here is the transitory situation, and all great examples of that.

The one from Wilkinson-Latham (45) is indeed identified as c.1780 dragoon officers sword and appears in Blair as noted. I recall getting this around '78, and it had a brass hilt. I was surprised in seeing other examples being steel rather than brass. There never seemed to be a consensus on what these were...in a rather bizarre note Stone (1934) has one of these among several other swords and listed as Italian! ?
I no longer have it, wish I still did.