An Big and Heavy Katar

dralin23 · 18th November 2022, 07:34 AM

I would like to publish my last purchase here in the forum for discussion. i hope that the collectors of indian weapons will write me their opinion and that there will be a good discussion about it. for me it is interesting to know what you think about the age of this piece, what you think about the state of preservation. he was given to me as a katar from 18.19.th.ct. offered and sold. i remembered seeing a katar like this before looking at the photos the seller had sent me... so i looked in my library for a comparative piece and i also found it in the 1998 figiel auction catalogue. at first i thought it would be exactly this Katar because they were very similar in shape, appearance and size, you have to look more closely to see the small differences. there he is definitely described as a Katar from the 17th-18th centuries.
That's why I had relied on the information provided by the seller. this Katar is 80 cm. long with a very heavy and powerful blade of 50 cm. length and 8 cm width in front of the handle.
the weight is almost 2000gr. very high. actually much too heavy for the fight!
the pictures i received before the sale looked very good in any case, it was shown in quite acceptable condition, that's why i finally bought it. I would first like to hear the opinions of our forum members who are familiar with Indian weapons before I post any more pictures of this Katar.
I would be very happy if there would be some good posts from you.

Nihl · 18th November 2022, 03:47 PM

Hi Dralin. To me I would have to agree with the first attribution you were provided. This katar looks like it is maybe a late 18th or early 19th century reproduction of the famous "hooded katar" that hails from south india, most famously used by the vijayanagar empire. Because it lacks much of the intricate decoration found on actual hooded katar, I would guess it was made somewhere in north india instead of in the south. The beaded edges on your katar, to my eyes, look very similar to the way beading was done on late 18th/early 19th century rajput hilts. The fact that the langets also end in an abstract, idiosyncratic, palmette-esque design cements the idea to me that this katar is a unique one-off piece, probably made by someone unfamiliar with traditional southern styles, instead of being created in any of the numerous regional production centers in the south.

dralin23 · 18th November 2022, 05:16 PM

hi nihl
Thanks for your consideration, yes I would agree with that too. it differs significantly from the early forms from south india. there were many fine details to be found on these katars, such as the makara heads on the grip ends. these suggested strings of pearls on the edge of the handle were actually a sign of katars or swords from the decan. as far as I know.
I definitely can't imagine what this katar was made for at all, with this heavy weight I think it's absolutely unsuitable for every fight.. although in the jaipur collection or is it in udaipur( I'm not sure where I had seen it) there is a personal fighting sword of a rajas and it has the proud weight of 3.5 kg.... it must have been a very strong man.....

Drabant1701 · 19th November 2022, 12:51 PM

Very nice piece I would love to hold something like that. Clearly made for display, but to what purpose I do not know. Jens Nordlunde would surly know all about it but I have not seen him online for a while.

ariel · 20th November 2022, 12:16 AM

I would guess that an 80 cm stabbing weapon with a 50 cm blade is a precursor of Pata . We all remember earlier form of Pata, colloquially called Jamadhar Katari that was a transitional stage between a hooded katar and full-blown Patah. See Stone, Fig.434, #13. Your example as well as Fiegel's example may be a short-lived transitional stage between a classical hooded katar and Jamadhar Katari. Inevitably these weapons weighed more than regular katars , but gained an advantage of a longer reach. See Stone, Fig 434. ##14,16,32. Tanjore katar with a 36 cm-long European blade and elaborate " hood" is shown in Stone Fig.433, #1. Weight is another consideration, but such weapons must have been created by special order, taking into account the size and the physical strength of the customer. Anup Singh's brother, Padam Singh, trained with a 10.14 kg (!) sword and his fighting sword weighed 2.96 kg ( Elgood, Jodhpur collection, vol. 1, pp. 176-178).

The question arises: are Fiegel's and your example contemporary Indian creations? I would doubt it: the auction of Fiegel's collection took place in 1998, 24 years ago and his book went out in 1991, 30 years ago. Fiegel collected Indian arms for many years and went to India several times because there were few if any examples on the market during those times. Thus, his objects were acquired well before 1998, when a deliberate forgery of Indian weapons was practically non-existent. I say " practically" leaving out the possibility of the contemporary Indian masters seeing the Fiegel's katar in the auction booklet and making a copy.

Could they be a production of royal workshops dating back to the end of the 19th century? Possible. In which case they are still honest artistic creations.

In short, I like it.

dralin23 · 21st November 2022, 05:48 AM

hello drabant hello ariel,
I hope that we will perhaps get a few more opinions from our members who specialize in Indian weapons.
Ariel, what you're saying sounds logical and I also know reports that the Indian sword dealers allegedly assembled weapons especially for Figel, because they knew what he was looking for. are these swords worth less then? I don't think so, unless it was a conscious deception! it was already read in earlier threads that blades and handles were sometimes stored separately in Indian armories and if you read the last two books
"rajput arms and armour"
From Robert Elgood's point of view, there are many examples of unmounted high-quality sword blades that have been stored in the Raja's armory.
unfortunately i don't know the weight of this katare from the figel collection. i can only orientate myself by the looks and the masses and therein lies a similarity with the katar i presented.
I think I can anticipate that I am of the opinion that the katar shown here is not from the 18th century. originates. he should be at the end of the 19th century at the earliest. to have been made...
they are probably really real pieces for the wall or the display.., or just for the oriental room as it was at the end of the 19th century. was very fashionable among rich people in europe or america.

ariel · 21st November 2022, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello drabant hello ariel,
I hope that we will perhaps get a few more opinions from our members who specialize in Indian weapons.

............

I am of the opinion that the katar shown here is not from the 18th century. originates. he should be at the end of the 19th century at the earliest. to have been made...
they are probably really real pieces for the wall or the display.., or just for the oriental room as it was at the end of the 19th century. was very fashionable among rich people in europe or america.

Quite conceivable. They are very "show-y" and are likely to look great on the wall. I wouldn't mind having one because of its artistic value.

20th November 2022, 12:16 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would guess that an 80 cm stabbing weapon with a 50 cm blade is a precursor of Pata . We all remember earlier form of Pata, colloquially called Jamadhar Katari that was a transitional stage between a hooded katar and full-blown Patah. See Stone, Fig.434, #13. Your example as well as Fiegel's example may be a short-lived transitional stage between a classical hooded katar and Jamadhar Katari. Inevitably these weapons weighed more than regular katars , but gained an advantage of a longer reach. See Stone, Fig 434. ##14,16,32. Tanjore katar with a 36 cm-long European blade and elaborate " hood" is shown in Stone Fig.433, #1. Weight is another consideration, but such weapons must have been created by special order, taking into account the size and the physical strength of the customer. Anup Singh's brother, Padam Singh, trained with a 10.14 kg (!) sword and his fighting sword weighed 2.96 kg ( Elgood, Jodhpur collection, vol. 1, pp. 176-178). The question arises: are Fiegel's and your example contemporary Indian creations? I would doubt it: the auction of Fiegel's collection took place in 1998, 24 years ago and his book went out in 1991, 30 years ago. Fiegel collected Indian arms for many years and went to India several times because there were few if any examples on the market during those times. Thus, his objects were acquired well before 1998, when a deliberate forgery of Indian weapons was practically non-existent. I say " practically" leaving out the possibility of the contemporary Indian masters seeing the Fiegel's katar in the auction booklet and making a copy. Could they be a production of royal workshops dating back to the end of the 19th century? Possible. In which case they are still honest artistic creations. In short, I like it. Last edited by ariel; 20th November 2022 at 10:38 AM.

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18th November 2022, 07:34 AM	#1
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	An Big and Heavy Katar I would like to publish my last purchase here in the forum for discussion. i hope that the collectors of indian weapons will write me their opinion and that there will be a good discussion about it. for me it is interesting to know what you think about the age of this piece, what you think about the state of preservation. he was given to me as a katar from 18.19.th.ct. offered and sold. i remembered seeing a katar like this before looking at the photos the seller had sent me... so i looked in my library for a comparative piece and i also found it in the 1998 figiel auction catalogue. at first i thought it would be exactly this Katar because they were very similar in shape, appearance and size, you have to look more closely to see the small differences. there he is definitely described as a Katar from the 17th-18th centuries. That's why I had relied on the information provided by the seller. this Katar is 80 cm. long with a very heavy and powerful blade of 50 cm. length and 8 cm width in front of the handle. the weight is almost 2000gr. very high. actually much too heavy for the fight! the pictures i received before the sale looked very good in any case, it was shown in quite acceptable condition, that's why i finally bought it. I would first like to hear the opinions of our forum members who are familiar with Indian weapons before I post any more pictures of this Katar. I would be very happy if there would be some good posts from you. Attached Images

18th November 2022, 03:47 PM	#2
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Hi Dralin. To me I would have to agree with the first attribution you were provided. This katar looks like it is maybe a late 18th or early 19th century reproduction of the famous "hooded katar" that hails from south india, most famously used by the vijayanagar empire. Because it lacks much of the intricate decoration found on actual hooded katar, I would guess it was made somewhere in north india instead of in the south. The beaded edges on your katar, to my eyes, look very similar to the way beading was done on late 18th/early 19th century rajput hilts. The fact that the langets also end in an abstract, idiosyncratic, palmette-esque design cements the idea to me that this katar is a unique one-off piece, probably made by someone unfamiliar with traditional southern styles, instead of being created in any of the numerous regional production centers in the south.

18th November 2022, 05:16 PM	#3
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hi nihl Thanks for your consideration, yes I would agree with that too. it differs significantly from the early forms from south india. there were many fine details to be found on these katars, such as the makara heads on the grip ends. these suggested strings of pearls on the edge of the handle were actually a sign of katars or swords from the decan. as far as I know. I definitely can't imagine what this katar was made for at all, with this heavy weight I think it's absolutely unsuitable for every fight.. although in the jaipur collection or is it in udaipur( I'm not sure where I had seen it) there is a personal fighting sword of a rajas and it has the proud weight of 3.5 kg.... it must have been a very strong man.....

19th November 2022, 12:51 PM	#4
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Very nice piece I would love to hold something like that. Clearly made for display, but to what purpose I do not know. Jens Nordlunde would surly know all about it but I have not seen him online for a while.

21st November 2022, 05:48 AM	#6
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hello drabant hello ariel, I hope that we will perhaps get a few more opinions from our members who specialize in Indian weapons. Ariel, what you're saying sounds logical and I also know reports that the Indian sword dealers allegedly assembled weapons especially for Figel, because they knew what he was looking for. are these swords worth less then? I don't think so, unless it was a conscious deception! it was already read in earlier threads that blades and handles were sometimes stored separately in Indian armories and if you read the last two books "rajput arms and armour" From Robert Elgood's point of view, there are many examples of unmounted high-quality sword blades that have been stored in the Raja's armory. unfortunately i don't know the weight of this katare from the figel collection. i can only orientate myself by the looks and the masses and therein lies a similarity with the katar i presented. I think I can anticipate that I am of the opinion that the katar shown here is not from the 18th century. originates. he should be at the end of the 19th century at the earliest. to have been made... they are probably really real pieces for the wall or the display.., or just for the oriental room as it was at the end of the 19th century. was very fashionable among rich people in europe or america.